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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 196 of 508 (772765)
11-18-2015 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2015 2:16 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
We don't behead people for being gay or for being Christian or for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rape and slavery are not part of our ideology.
Errrm, you do know that the UK and the US enthusiastically support Saudi Arabia. They have beheaded way more people than ISIS. Rape and slavery is part of Saudi Arabia's ideaology. Overall, Saudi Arabia is worse than ISIS (so far). The US and UK enthusiastically supports Saudi Arabia. So by proxy, . . . yeah, we do behead people for being gay or for being Christian or for being the wrong kind of Muslim
Umm, are you sure you're not a hypocrite? Do I need to quit writing my television script already?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 2:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 2:44 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 197 of 508 (772766)
11-18-2015 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2015 2:21 PM


Re: The Question
I thought your reply was a sassy joke, so I followed your lead.
My mistake. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 2:21 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 198 of 508 (772771)
11-18-2015 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by dronestar
11-18-2015 2:25 PM


Re: A Few Details
Errrm, you do know that the UK and the US enthusiastically support Saudi Arabia.
Then there is a good argument that they should stop. How does that make my clearly stated beliefs hypocritical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 2:25 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 199 of 508 (772775)
11-18-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2015 2:44 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
How does that make my clearly stated beliefs hypocritical?
___________________________________________________
RingO writes:
We have created a monster and he is us.
Dr Adequate writes:
We don't behead people for being gay or for being Christian or for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rape and slavery are not part of our ideology. We are not the monster.
Yes, yes we are the monster. Through Saudi Arabia, we DO behead people for being gay or for being Christian or for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rape and slavery, through Saudi Arabia, IS part of our ideology.
Then Saudi Arabia supports ISIS . . .
quote:
Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country
Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country | The Independent | The Independent
So Ringo's right, . . . directly and indirectly, we are the monster.
Until the US and the UK stops supporting Saudi Arabia, we would be hypocrites to tell another organization to stop what we are already supporting.
This is difficult to understand?
quote:
UK training Saudi forces used to crush Arab spring
UK training Saudi forces used to crush Arab spring | Saudi Arabia | The Guardian
Saudis’ UK-made war jets outnumber RAF’s
Saudis’ UK-made war jets outnumber RAF’s
Britain urged to stop providing weapons to Saudi Arabia
Amnesty calls for suspension of arms transfers as group says it has evidence of war crimes in Yemen conflict
Britain urged to stop providing weapons to Saudi Arabia | Arms trade | The Guardian
Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country
Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country | The Independent | The Independent

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 2:44 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 3:29 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 4:06 PM dronestar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(4)
Message 200 of 508 (772777)
11-18-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by dronestar
11-17-2015 11:12 AM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
You seem to be taking a common but pointless approach to problem solving. You seem to be suggesting that the answer to a problem situation is to not be in the situation we find ourselves in.
If your argument is that recent Western interventions are a significant contributory factor to the current situation with ISIS then I won't disagree with you. Blair, Bush, Clinton etc. selling arms and generally sucking up to Saudi Arabia - That seems to be your particular bugbear and that too I can join you in condemning.
However having created the monster that is ISIS - Now what? You can post all the historical pictures you like of Western leaders looking dodgy in the company of Saudi royals. You can write all the patronising, condescending little bed time story posts you like as well. But none of that provides any answer as to how to tackle the existence of ISIS now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 11:12 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 3:24 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 204 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 201 of 508 (772778)
11-18-2015 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Straggler
11-18-2015 3:14 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
What Straggler said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2015 3:14 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 202 of 508 (772779)
11-18-2015 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by dronestar
11-18-2015 3:07 PM


Re: A Few Details
Yes, yes we are the monster.
Well, speak for yourself. Personally, I am against, what should I call it ... monstrositism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:07 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 203 of 508 (772780)
11-18-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon
11-17-2015 5:47 AM


Re: A Few Details
Some of those who committing these acts are well educated and from relatively wealthy backgrounds in Western countries.
Some are from marginalised and relatively poor communities in wealthy Western countries.
Some are from war torn shit holes where there is little hope of any half decent future.
The high profile cases involving Western targets get the media attention and they do seem to be home grown to some extent. But to say "most" Muslim suicide bombers and Jihadists are wealthy westerners seems to me to be ignoring the fact that such incidents are relatively common in the Middle East. Beirut had a major incident the day before Paris. Baghdad around the same time.
Where are you getting your info from that "most" of those undertaking these acts are wealthy Westerners? And is it possible that those that do meet the your description consider themselves to be fighting on behalf of their downtrodden 'brothers'?
We can condemn the actions whilst recognising that the Palestine situation is a contributory factor here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 AM Jon has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 204 of 508 (772781)
11-18-2015 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Straggler
11-18-2015 3:14 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Are you insane?
The US and the UK are STILL supporting Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is STILL supporting ISIS.
Right now.
Right this very second.
With your tax dollars.
And you're dismissing my complaint as a minor "bugbear?"
Are you insane?
Dr A protests the way ISIS beheads people. But with the US and UK's support, Saudi Arabia have been doing that for decadeS. And is doing that . . . TODAY! And tomorrow. And the next.
How can that be a minor issue to you when it is directly connected to ISIS?
STRAG writes:
However having created the monster that is ISIS - Now what?
Oh, I don't know, . . . how about, . . . stop supporting Saudi Arabia?
This would seem to be the first step. Also wouldn't take ANY effort.
Sheesh, a child has his hand over an open fire. It's starts to burn. His first reaction is to remove the hand from the fire.
Are you guy's pulling my leg?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2015 3:14 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 209 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2015 5:31 PM dronestar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 205 of 508 (772782)
11-18-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dronestar
11-18-2015 3:51 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Except that we dont want Saudi Arabia actively against us....they have the weapons...and the money...and the OIL....to do serious damage by supporting our enemies even more actively than they do now.
Politics makes strange bedfellows and we want Saudi Arabia in our bed as long as possible.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:51 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 206 of 508 (772783)
11-18-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Tangle
11-18-2015 12:12 PM


Re: A Few Details
When you get one - like we did in 1938
Neville Chamberlain was a politician during WWI. He was Director of National Service where he continuously tried to get Lloyd George to relax the rules so more men could be conscripted, even as Lloyd George refused he still organised efforts to get men to volunteer even if they were exempt from conscription, and when it became clear the Prime Minister was making his job impossible at the cost of British servicemen's lives, he resigned.
He even said, "It is perfectly evident now that force is the only argument Germany understands...Heaven knows I don't want to get back to alliances but if Germany continues to behave as she has done lately she may drive us to it. "
Most people think of him wrongly as a pacifist because of the Sudentland issue. When Hitler stated he would annex it but promised to go no further - this was a situation quite similar to the Crimea/Ukraine situation of modern times.
Unless you think we should currently be engaged in Total War against Russia - you must think the world's politicians are all pacifists too.
Really it comes down to the fact that he said in a public speech that there would be peace {he initially refused to do this but ultimately decided to tie the mission back to the Treaty of Berlin and Disraeli's comments regarding honourable peace}, and he was wrong. However, the evidence suggests he didn't so much as believe this as hope this. You can't return from a diplomatic mission that you hope to ultimately succeed and declare the other participant as a war-mongering liar if you want it to actually succeed.
they tend to make wrong assumptions about the other side.
If he made the wrong assumptions, all of Parliament did - they were happy with the successful attempt at diplomacy - as this had been the plan for some months now. Wait for the Nuremberg rally and go meet with Hitler if war seems inevitable and hope to forestall any further territorial advances which may force a series of nations to group up and engage in Total War again. Nobody wanted that in Britain.
pacifists don't seem to make good leaders.
Not national leaders, no - not usually. Chamberlain was a good leader. He got the Factories Act 1937 passed as well as Holiday with Pay Act 1938, Housing Act 1938 and his Government Act of 1929. He might be described as a liberal Thatcher.
After he met with Hitler he continued the process of rearmament - preparing Britain for war but did not turn industry to wartime production as he didn't want Hitler to think he had to go to war to defend against a militarising Britain.
He may have continued to fight for peace for a few months where people we skeptical, but after more belligerence Chamberlain publicly threatened Hitler with war - increased military recruitment, encouraged France to ramp up rearmament etc. He issued a guarantee to Poland - he organized military alliances to back up Poland. And when the time came, he waited 24 hours to issue a 2 hour ultimatum, and then declare war. This was viewed as weakness by Britain but France was pleading with Britain to wait a day.
He declared war.
He was not a pacifist. He tried to prevent WWII while preparing for it. He may have made some mistakes, but can you really hold him to blame for trying to avoid Europe falling into Total War again?
Islam claims to be the religion of peace; it's leaders don't seem to agree.
Islam does not have any leaders.
We now have the strange situation of the leader of the opposition in our parliament refusing point blank to press the nuke button if he was required too
Nobody is required to.
rendering our trillion dollar nuclear deterrent no deterrent at all if he got in power
First - most lunatics who want to murder millions of people don't really care about what a politician said to his people with regards to nuclear weapons intent. It could be a lie to confuse enemies, it could be a lie to fool voters.
You think there are many likely scenarios where the difference between someone who wants to kill millions from doing it and not doing it, would be based on comments like Corbyn's?
Second: Salami tactics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 12:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 7:00 PM Modulous has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 207 of 508 (772785)
11-18-2015 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by dronestar
11-18-2015 3:07 PM


Re: A Few Details
Yes, yes we are the monster.
Speak for yourself. I am not.
I've talked about my own situation before on this thread, I don't like doing so, but apparently I have to do so to make the point whether I'm talking to conservatives or liberals. Today a woman fleeing domestic abuse is going to look at my house and see if she's OK taking refuge in our spare room. Goddammit, I am not "the monster".
Dronestar, if you are actually "the monster", then stop being a fucking monster. Otherwise, shut the fuck up about chastising us about how "we" are "the monster'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:07 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 4:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 208 of 508 (772788)
11-18-2015 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2015 4:06 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
Otherwise, shut the fuck up about chastising us about how "we" are "the monster'.
Dr Adequate, I don't think you ever got so mad on the forum. It is telling. I suspect you are so angry because of cognitive dissonance.
If so, good, that means I got through to one person today. I've got another 310 million fellow-Americans to go. Perhaps it will be then when I and other americans have stopped supporting other monsters, we will then ourselves stop being a monster.
Did you read Phat's recent post?
Phat writes:
Politics makes strange bedfellows and we want Saudi Arabia in our bed as long as possible.
Lovely, isn't it?
Edited by dronestar, : added Phat's post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 4:06 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 10:47 PM dronestar has replied
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 209 of 508 (772792)
11-18-2015 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dronestar
11-18-2015 3:51 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
I refer you back to Message 114
That starts with "If we broke all ties with Saudi Arabia......"
I call this issue your "bugbear" not to disagree with the general sentiments or even to trivialise that issue but because you seem to keep putting it forward as the sole solution to problems and issues that it wont now solve. By all means campaign against the ongoing links with Saudi Arabia. But don't expect that alone to solve the ISIS problem.
Frankly you seem a little obsessed by this issue to the exclusion of all other factors and in ways which cause you to rail against those who largely agree that the links in question should be condemned....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:51 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by dronestar, posted 11-19-2015 10:48 AM Straggler has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 210 of 508 (772794)
11-18-2015 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
11-17-2015 7:23 AM


Re: The true motivations of Islam
Why do you make so much of a misattributed quote? Everybody here does that. Why not just say oops misquote but deal with the content anyway.
Because you do it far more regularly than anyone because you don't bother to fact check, verify or seek confirmation. The goal of berating you for doing it is probably in the hopes that you'll eventually be cautious out of fear of being embarrassed. A daft notion of course, you have already rationalized copy and pasting quotes from any blog that agrees with you without a care.
That's NOT what moves them. Islam moves them and Islam is an ideology that tells them God wants violent attacks on "infidels" and will reward them with all the sex they could ever want.
Strange that almost all of them ignore this and generally just sell vegetables or go to the office or whatever. I guess they act in ways that are contrary to their motives is expected when normal assumptions about human nature and circumstances are useless.
And my source for all the quotes, including the Adams misquote is
HERE
So yeah, a blog from someone who wears a strong agenda like a badge of pride? Not a source. It might be a place to go find some interesting supportive quotes - but you have to find the origin of those quotes. IE - the source of the quote. There are way too many deliberately misattributed quotes to great men out there to spread them, and the lies of the original liar without doing some due diligence.
As an honest person, this is of course, your moral duty. Your failing in it is worthy of us criticising you.
I already said it's ideology -driven anyway. You don't need to know a lot about Islam to figure that out, so all this western PC psychobabble really has no excuse in this context.
The idea that something is 'ideology-driven' IS western PC psychobabble, Faith.
Part of their ideology also prescribes lying to nonMuslims to further the cause of Islam.
I've told you before, but this is factually incorrect. You won't listen this time either.
Taqiyya is a Shi'ite view, and it primarily allows Shi'ites to lie to Sunni's who would persecute them if they knew their religious affiliates.
Sunni teaches it is better to die than lie, but if you are misleading sinners to escape their evil designs on you then it is permissible.
They absolutely cannot and will not adapt to this world as it is. It's all or nothing for the Islamic State.
Are you proposing genocide, then? We keep murdering Muslims until there are none left?
unless the war is severe enough to dissuade them from continuing their jihad
By your own admission they never will. It's all or nothing, right? So war will never be severe enough for Muslims. we simply have to kill them into converting to Christianity. That's WJWD.
YOu cannot persuade them to an alien worldview either.
What constitutes alien?
It's an empirical fact that Muslims can convert to other religions, and that they can adopt western ideals. So why is this avenue blocked from consideration?
Those cultures prohibit evangelizing too of course and will behead those that try
I'm lost as to which cultures exactly you are talking about. Clearly evangelizing Christianity is perfectly fine with most Muslims. As an example I just came up with now - the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Indonesia. There are waves of hate crimes against Christians, of course - and over the years some pretty awful government policy against them - nevertheless, over the course of history there are millions of Christians in Indonesia who have not been beheaded, and thousands whose very job it is to evangelize!
As for within ISIS, then yes it is likely to get you killed. But then, that's how Christianity won the West wasn't it? By doing it despite the persecution? It may still be possible to evangelize. If you are happy dropping bombs, why not bibles? Why not send messages of love? Why not drop raspberry pis with Vegetales and Sesame Street hardcoded onto it? Why not shower them with love, drop bouquets of flowers on them? There are ways to evangelize without concerted efforts to send people into a country. Eventually the Berlin Wall came down.
Forget ISIS though, whether they are here to stay or not - we need to plan for when they aren't such a big issue again, and try to ensure that we're doing today harmonises with what we want to do after they're defeated.
Not any more practically possible than any of the others proposed here, unless missionaries are willing to go in by the hundreds or thousands trusting in the true God but prepared to die for the cause.
Unfortunately the best Christianity has to offer these days are afraid of dying for some reason.
From the same source linked above:HERE'S a talk by an ex-jihadist who also makes it clear that you can't cure the problem of Islam with the usual silly ideas westerners throw at it, that it is an IDEOLOGY.
The only ideas we've really tried are variations around a theme of killing them, then arming their enemies, then killing their enemies when they get power, then arming the enemies of their enemies to help fend their enemies off, but having to kill them when they get too much power and arming the enemies of the enemies of the enemies to fend off counter attacks....
I agree that isn't the way to destroy an ideology.
Education, cultural exchange, showing a friendly face rather than a mean one? Sometimes that can help - it certainly factored into the fall of the invulnerable Soviet Union.
The liberal western method here would be to first get a reasonable grip on what is actually going on in the region. Despite what many right wingers are saying 'Islam' is not the complete answer, and what part of the problem may be because of Islam is the same part of the problem we have little influence over. We can influence the Islam side of the equation a little. We could, for instance, not go around reinforcing the recruiters messages like you do.
HOWEVER, I did not tell anyone not to give aid to the refugees, I just said you have to take all this into account and THEN decide how to handle it.
We, and nations, have already done this. I did it in high school when we learned about Jewish refugees. My attitude was 'whatever might be going on, we should do our best to help as many fleeing refugees as we can'. In this case, since the region was destabilized by Britain and US unilateral fuckups, and France has not been blameless - I say we should take the burden of helping the innocents who want to flee the mess.
Given that the overwhelming majority of refugees have fled to Turkey and other neighbouring provinces or are internally displaced (nearly 10 million atm I believe) I think it's disgusting to see the entire EU and the US wringing their hands over the few hundred thousand that might be distributed between them.
Can you imagine how America would react if New Jersey became dangerous to inhabit (ahem, you there in the back - behave yourself ) and everybody there had to leave? With open arms, I'd wager. There'd be a rallying cry of 'We can make room!', housing projects being built, whole new towns cropping up and slowly everyone would be more or less rehoused (with some expected incompetencies along the way no doubt).
It requires creative solutions, not the usual PC assumptions.
I'm not sure you are using the term 'PC' quite right. PC isn't about assumptions its about appearances. One should not appear to be offensive as this may result complaints from coworkers, scandals in the media etc.
I'm not trying to avoid offending anybody, but I am keen to avoid making it easy for ISIS to spin things to make them look like the noble underdog with God on their side. It's a regular Dawud vs Ǧālūt confrontation, only the slingshot are automatic guns and rpgs and the giant is a wealthy military-industrial conglomeration of corporations and governments.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 7:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
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