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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 241 of 508 (772920)
11-20-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by dronestar
11-20-2015 9:18 AM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
If we took all the steps I stated in Message 114 do you think ISIS's desire to do away with Western democracies and replace them with Islamic theocracies would be satiated?
I don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 9:18 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 242 of 508 (772930)
11-20-2015 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Modulous
11-20-2015 2:04 PM


Re: A Few Details
Modulus writes:
Really?
Yes really. As you are unable to dispute that Islamic states have Islamic leaders - as demonstrated by the FACT that Iran has a whole political and religous infrastructure composed of Islamic leaders - that part of the game is therefore over.
But the Muslims in the Taliban? They probably do justify their actions as being towards the furtherance of peace
Having also been unable to produce an atheist Taliban leader - and just how bloody absurd was that argument? - you now switch to Islam is the religion of peace. So it was all an attempt to excuse the hideous actions of ISIS - that being the Islamic STATE of Iraq and Syria.
Well the actions in Paris last week and more importantly the actions of a STATE suggest that reality is otherwise.
Psychopathy makes up about 1% of the human population approximately. My understanding is that religious conviction among psychopaths is diminished, or non-existent. Are Afghanistanis less psychopathic that Westerners?
So now the apologetics and excuses shift. Are you seriously proposing that ISIS is composed purely of psychopaths? That is, psychopaths that proclaim a belief in God and band together in that way that psychopaths do, being notoriously joiners and caring deeply about common causes. Sheesh. Have a think over the evidence instead of about what excuses you can find.
And why we're at it, what the fuck are you trying to say and why?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 2:04 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 243 of 508 (772937)
11-20-2015 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Straggler
11-20-2015 2:58 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
STRAG writes:
But if we broke all ties with Saudi Arabia, pulled all Western troops out of Middle Eastern nations, ended all drone and plane attacks and evacuated Israel of Jews so that it could be completely reclaimed by Palestinians - I still don't think that would stop ISIS pursuing their aims as they would consider all of that little more than a decent start to the new world order they desire.
STRAG writes:
If we took all the steps I stated in Message 114 do you think ISIS's desire to do away with Western democracies and replace them with Islamic theocracies would be satiated?
I don't.
I'll probably have to write this paragraph another hundred times . . . At this point, nothing will work 100%. As I wrote before, despite world-wide protests, Bush Jr/Blair drove off the cliff 12 years ago after the invasion of Iraq. There are no 100% solutions. That car is in free fall. There are no air brakes. There are no Chitty-chitty-bang-bang wings. And now the car is crashing on the boulders below. You would think the west would have learned their lesson, but as the US candidates rev up their tough guy platform speeches, you can be sure the american voters will pick the most radically violent 'contestant.'
So what can help?
1. First of all the term you use above; "Western Democracies." You're so ethno-centric, and BBC-propagandized, that you actually think "western democracy" is a selling point to the people who were instructed to what Western Democracies REALLY means by the likes of Bush Jr. and Tony Blair. Your Tony Blair, after murdering up to a million Iraqi civilians, is a man who walks around free from the worries of prosecution in your country. And you point at ISIS and say THEY are the monsters? How can you Brits stand the arrogant hypocritical stench of yourselves?
2. If the United Nations can be gathered again to work towards a partial peace in the middle east, the US and the UK needs to . . . NOT lead. They should shut the hell up, make NO suggestions, and go with whatever the rest of the world wants.
3. The Israel oppression of Palestinians has been a violently festering wound that the "Western Democratic" USA keeps open. You don't think that cruel imbalance motivates people to be angry, really angry? Really, you didn't know this? I'm surprised you put it in your list.
4. It will surprise you to know that some people want to do an honest days job, and then spend time with their families. By continuing to doing harm, for example drone strikes, that murder woman and children, the west continues to motivate moderates that may not want to join ISIS. The West has hardened a good many people against "Western Democracy" but I am confident, YES, many would hesitate to join ISIS if the "western Democratic " nations stopped murdering their children.
5. Little Straggler junior thought about those words to himself. Even at his young age, he knew his father was correct, he could hardly prevent other people's actions. But, thinking further still, we CAN control our OWN actions. So what IS important is what OUR moral actions are. Shouldn't we simply do the right thing, regardless of other people's actions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2015 2:58 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2015 4:33 PM dronestar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 244 of 508 (772938)
11-20-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by dronestar
11-20-2015 4:18 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
So that's a 'No' then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:18 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:40 PM Straggler has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 245 of 508 (772939)
11-20-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Straggler
11-20-2015 4:33 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
When you see Tony, say cheerio for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2015 4:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2015 4:46 PM dronestar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 246 of 508 (772940)
11-20-2015 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by dronestar
11-20-2015 4:40 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Why you would think I have positive feelings towards Tony Blair is a mystery.
And he is far more likely to be seen over on your side of the pond than here these days anyway. You guys over there seem far fonder of him than we are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:40 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:53 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 253 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 7:53 AM Straggler has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 247 of 508 (772941)
11-20-2015 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Straggler
11-20-2015 4:46 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
"You guys over there seem far fonder of him than we are."
Americans are sociopaths. (I find it difficult to believe you have forgotten I am not exactly a proud american.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2015 4:46 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 248 of 508 (772942)
11-20-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tangle
11-20-2015 3:53 PM


Re: A Few Details
Yes really.
Hrm. You are wrong, of course.
As you are unable to dispute that Islamic states have Islamic leaders
An argument I have never made so is irrelevant to your assessment. The argument I made was
quote:
I can bet a lot that he justifies his actions as being for the furtherance of peace in his lands.
The evidence being: universal human behaviour.
as demonstrated by the FACT that Iran has a whole political and religous infrastructure composed of Islamic leaders - that part of the game is therefore over.
Yes, it is a fact that Islamic leaders exist. It is a fact that Muslim leaders exist. I have said this before, I referred you to where I said it in my last post. Here it is again: Message 231
Having also been unable to produce an atheist Taliban leader
Why would I need to? You already agreed that the law of large numbers assures us that it is possible. And whether one exists or not makes no odds to my argument.
and just how bloody absurd was that argument?
I merely mentioned it for completeness. You are the one that thinks its important to argue about it.
you now switch to Islam is the religion of peace.
Switch to? Have you forgotten yourself?
Let's jump back to Message 206 where we learn that that has been what the argument is about since the beginning.
So it was all an attempt to excuse the hideous actions of ISIS
You know when you do maths, and you check you work afterwards to make sure your answer makes sense?
You know that trying to understand the motivations of strangers over the internet is much more difficult than most maths you've likely ever done?
Yeah - you should have run this by your sanity checker when you reached this conclusion. It's so utterly wrong, I would be excruciatingly embarrassed.
Well the actions in Paris last week and more importantly the actions of a STATE suggest that reality is otherwise.
What reality? Have you just gone back to start of the argument again? I am confident that many of the perpetrators of the Paris massacre believed that their actions were for the greater good in bringing about world peace.
So now the apologetics and excuses shift.
You've confused evidence with excuses. I have no idea how. I think you may have grown emotional.
Are you seriously proposing that ISIS is composed purely of psychopaths?
No. I'm proposing about 1% of them. You can tell I am doing that because I said
quote:
Psychopathy makes up about 1% of the human population
Given the situation - I'd expect there to be maybe as many as 4% psychopaths in the leadership.
That is, psychopaths that proclaim a belief in God and band together in that way that psychopaths do, being notoriously joiners and caring deeply about common causes.
Psychopaths regularly lie about religion in a bid to gain power and money. My point was that there is motivation for people who don't give a crap about God to join a religious organisation, kill and rape their way to the upper echelons. All I was saying is that these kinds of people don't necessarily give a crap about peace.
quote:
A Taliban commander could of course be an Atheist who just prefers one state of affairs over another. Assuming he is a Muslim, however, I can bet a lot that he justifies his actions as being for the furtherance of peace in his lands.
Have a think over the evidence instead of about what excuses you can find.
If you just paid attention to the discussion, we wouldn't have these embarrassing moments.
And why we're at it, what the fuck are you trying to say and why?
Islam does not have any leaders. Islamic leaders mostly probably do want peace, on their terms.
I said this, as a 6 word interjection into a larger post about other issues as a minor correction. As I said: words matter in propaganda. Islam and Islamic are different words with different meanings.
Christian {person who believes in Christ}: Muslim
Christian {property - it is a Christian text, the King is a Christian monarch, today is a Christian holiday}: Islamic
Christianity: Islam
Christendom: ummah
Christianity doesn't necessarily have to have leaders, but it can and has and does {Catholicism must have a leader}. Islam can't, and hasn't, and doesn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 11-20-2015 3:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2015 2:55 AM Modulous has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 249 of 508 (772945)
11-20-2015 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by dronestar
11-19-2015 10:48 AM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Dronestar continues:
Drone writes:
Oh, I don't know, . . . how about, . . . stop supporting Saudi Arabia? This would seem to be the first step. Also wouldn't take ANY effort.
"First step." Usually Straggler, when one writes 'first step" that implies there are more steps.
Straggler writes:
Well..Yes. But if we broke all ties with Saudi Arabia, pulled all Western troops out of Middle Eastern nations, ended all drone and plane attacks and evacuated Israel of Jews so that it could be completely reclaimed by Palestinians - I still don't think that would stop ISIS pursuing their aims as they would consider all of that little more than a decent start to the new world order they desire.
So, dronestar - would Step Two be to cease the drones, in your opinion?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by dronestar, posted 11-19-2015 10:48 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by dronestar, posted 11-23-2015 4:45 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 250 of 508 (772946)
11-20-2015 6:20 PM


Kamel Daoud, Muslim and anti-Islamist, editor and columnist for the Algerian Quotidien d’Oran, wrote a piece that was translated from the French and published in The New York Times today. Among other things, he says this:
quote:
Daesh has a mother: the invasion of Iraq. But it also has a father: Saudi Arabia and its religious-industrial complex. Until that point is understood, battles may be won, but the war will be lost. Jihadists will be killed, only to be reborn again in future generations and raised on the same books.
Saudi Arabia, An ISIS That Made It
I thought it would be interesting to hear dronestar's argument from an insider's perspective.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 251 of 508 (772950)
11-21-2015 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Modulous
11-20-2015 5:06 PM


Re: A Few Details
Modulous writes:
Islam does not have any leaders.
And yet
Islamic leaders mostly probably do want peace, on their terms.
There's nothing more to be said on the leadership nonsense.
On the peace nonsense.
it's pretty damn clear that those currently creating caliphates and beheading anyone who disagrees with them do not have peace as their primary objective. They claim to be pursuing a holy jihad against the infidel and anyone else that gets in the way. Instead of making up denialist stories involving imaginary atheistic Taliban non-leaders and hoards of psychopaths acting in union on behalf of God, you might start taking them at their word - they want the entire world to be Muslim and they will carry on murdering to achieve it.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 5:06 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Modulous, posted 11-21-2015 8:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 252 of 508 (772952)
11-21-2015 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Modulous
11-20-2015 2:04 PM


Re: A Few Details
I wasn't going to get back into this, but I just don't understand. Why aren't "Islamic Leaders" and "Leaders of Islam" synonyms? Are "Catholic Leaders" and "Leaders of Catholicism" not synonyms either?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 2:04 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Modulous, posted 11-21-2015 9:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 253 of 508 (772953)
11-21-2015 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Straggler
11-20-2015 4:46 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Straggler writes:
And he is far more likely to be seen over on your side of the pond than here these days anyway. You guys over there seem far fonder of him than we are.
I think Blair is a mystery to us over here. The big mystery is why he ever followed Bush in the first place. All the evidence that there weren't really any weapons of mass destruction was available to all the allies the US approached while attempting to form a coalition. Jacques Chirac of France could see this, Blair couldn't, or he just felt bound to support his US ally no matter what.
I recently heard a security analyst comment that the US is number one on the Islamic State's list of evil nations, and that France is number two. Seems like Great Britain should be number two.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2015 4:46 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 254 of 508 (772956)
11-21-2015 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Tangle
11-21-2015 2:55 AM


Re: A Few Details
There's nothing more to be said on the leadership nonsense.
I'm surprised you managed to say as much as you did. Who would have thought there was mileage in arguing that the word 'Islam' is the same as the word 'Islamic'
Maybe one day we'll find ourselves arguing about the fact that Lovecraft and Lovecraftian are not the same things. An a Lovecraftian book is not Lovecraft, though it might have been written by him, but it might not.
You probably think that Brobdingnagian things are actually the land of Brobdingnag.
I wonder if there is confusion of atheism and secular?
Instead of making up denialist stories involving imaginary atheistic Taliban non-leaders and hoards of psychopaths acting in union on behalf of God
Wow. Despite me explicitly stating that you had this embarrassingly backwards, you still want to embarrass yourself with this?
OK.
1 There may exist atheist Taliban leaders
2 Taliban leaders are Islamic leaders
3 I concede that these Islamic leaders probably do not care for peace.
It's not a subtle point. It's a concession in the direction of YOUR opinion. This is me, taking a step towards your position. Its astonishing that you want to fight me on it so much. I told you that MY argument would not be affected by the absence of such a being, and I was being serious, but you insisted I support my position.
I did this by offering 'pscyhopathy', a medical condition affecting about 1% of the population, though which typically finds itself slightly overrepresented in certain types of organisation. I didn't propose, as you keep saying I did despite me telling you explicitly that I didn't, 'hordes of psychopaths'. I was simply saying
1. Psychopaths is exist in humans
2. Afghanis are humans
3. C1 There are psychopaths in Afghanistan
4. Psychopaths can be charismatic/charming
5. Psychopaths enjoy manipulating people, have no empathy, and enjoy power
6. The Taliban is an organisation where one can manipulate, kill and rape and earn some good money in the process
7. C2 The Taliban is attractive to psychopaths who have no qualms about lying about religious affiliation if it means they get ahead.
8. C3 There are probably psychopathic Taliban leaders
9. C4 Some of them may not believe in God, or if they do - it is likely diminished and their religious perspective, if honestly lay bare, may be unrecognizable as Islam to Muslims.
10. Taliban leaders are Islamic leaders. Even the atheists, should they happen to exist.
11. Conclusion: Therefore some Islamic leaders may well not care about peace.
Again - the fact that my argument is supporting something you said, it is odd you have spent so much time constructing a nonsense argument, put it into my mouth, just so that you can rail against its inanity.
it's pretty damn clear that those currently creating caliphates and beheading anyone who disagrees with them do not have peace as their primary objective.
If we are being this short sighted - nobody wants peace. We want to kill our enemies - they want to kill theirs. We all hate peace.
They claim to be pursuing a holy jihad against the infidel and anyone else that gets in the way.
And I believe them. But what's their goal?
I'm going to take them at their word. I'm going to believe that Islam is a motivating force in their behaviour.
Islamic armed action, aka jihad, is waged in order to bring about the greater peace. ISIS and their ilk have interpreted the 'oppressors' which are the typical quranic words to justify violence as being everybody but them. In their view they are ultimately removing the oppressors from the world so that the ummah can live in universal peace forever in harmony with Allah.
Something which you regarded as plausible when I first raised it, and I'm now simply confused as to your position with regard to it. How likely do you think it actually is that a sincere Muslim Taliban leader justifies the violence he commits and orders others to commit, using 'greater good' and 'for justice' and 'for peace' style rationalizations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2015 2:55 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 9:20 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2015 10:14 AM Modulous has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 255 of 508 (772958)
11-21-2015 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Modulous
11-21-2015 8:51 AM


Re: A Few Details
Modulous writes:
You probably think that Brobdingnagian things are actually the land of Brobdingnag.
Depends upon context. Today "Brobdingnagian" is an adjective with a specific meaning that wouldn't be interpreted as associating the modified noun with the fictional nation of Brobdingnag, but in Swift's novel where Brobdingnag is a real place a "Brobdingnagian leader" would be the same thing as a "leader of Brobdingnag."
For non-fictional places the two forms are even more obviously synonymous in many contexts: "Canadian Leader" and "Leader of Canada", etc.
I understand there's a distinction you're trying to draw, but I think it's going to be an exceedingly fine one for most people, one that's very difficult to keep in mind and one that's a significant distraction from your main point. Can't you make your point without insisting on this distinction?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Modulous, posted 11-21-2015 8:51 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Modulous, posted 11-21-2015 9:40 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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