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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 271 of 508 (773015)
11-23-2015 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Tangle
11-22-2015 9:36 AM


Tangle writes:
He's saying we're all the same, just people, they're no better and no worse than us. Well the evidence of Paris says otherwise.
You think Modulous is saying we're all the same as terrorists? That wasn't my interpretation.
I thought Modulous was reacting to discrimination against all of the Islamic faith because of the actions of a few, and in your next message you seem to make clear that you understand this point very well. But you continue on to argue that some societies are better than others, and that some bad Islamic dogmas must be reformed before Muslims can be considered as good as us. It's almost as if you're saying, "Sure, at heart Muslims are just as good as everyone else, but they've been infected by bad Islamic dogma that must be reformed before they can become acceptable to the west."
If I've understood you correctly then I think your brush is much too broad.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2015 9:36 AM Tangle has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(2)
Message 272 of 508 (773035)
11-23-2015 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by xongsmith
11-20-2015 6:00 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
`
Xongs writes:
So, dronestar - would Step Two be to cease the drones, in your opinion?
Hey Xong,
I'm not sure why you need to ask me as I've been pretty outspoken about this for the last seven(?) years. Besides my replies to Strag, I've always denounced the use of drones, for all purposes.
1. It is counter-productive: the innocent deaths it causes creates more "terrorists" from its surviving friends and families. That the US actually uses them to target weddings and funerals causes me to be deeply embarrassed of my country and the servicemen.
The US military/Obama knows drones are counter-productive, but uses them anyway:
quote:
"Civilian casualties were likely to be far higher than had been acknowledged, he said."
US drone attacks 'counter-productive', former Obama security adviser claims
US drone attacks 'counter-productive', former Obama security adviser claims | Drones (military) | The Guardian
It's a certain kind of monster who denounces others' terrorism but embraces their own.
2. Hugely hypocritical: If another country targeted one of our criminal politicians and "accidentally" caused the deaths of your family and friends, would you be angry? How would the US' respond? Do I need to ask?
Drone writes:
I'll probably have to write this paragraph another hundred times . . . At this point, nothing will work 100%.
When a single child is exposed to something cruelly traumatic, it can take a lifetime of professional counseling with positive support systems to overcome. When the US/UK illegally and immorally invaded Iraq on lies, we created about THREE MILLION highly traumatized and angry orphans. There is no positive support system in Iraq, no jobs, no education, no health care, no counselors, no remaining friends or family . . . just the support and REINFORCEMENT of millions of other highly angry civilians whom the US/UK targeted. And unlike other countries that the US invaded: weapons. Lots and lots and lots of american-made, top-quality weapons. The US/UK has taken every reason to live a fruitful and happy life from the Iraqis. That leaves them with the only reason for living: to avenge their position in life, and to hope to be able to lord over someone else (A typical response of those who have been victimized/traumatized). If american christians were put in that position, nearly all of them would also pervert the magical qualities of their bible to avenge their violators, just like the Iraqis are perverting their religion.
I doubt there is anything that will stop the monster that the US and UK created. But it seems to me we can at least go forward by doing no more harm . . .
quote:
We must ask ourselves why lethal weapons sold to those who are planning to cause much suffering to individuals and society? Unfortunately, the answer is, as we all know — it’s just money. Money, drenched in blood, and often innocent blood.
Pope Francis
But, it seems most people prefer using more bombs. Alas, it's been so effective in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by xongsmith, posted 11-20-2015 6:00 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 11-24-2015 11:02 AM dronestar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 273 of 508 (773075)
11-24-2015 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by dronestar
11-23-2015 4:45 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
dronester writes:
But, it seems most people prefer using more bombs.
You have to understand the difference between good capitalist factory-made bombs and those evil socialist home-made IEDs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by dronestar, posted 11-23-2015 4:45 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 274 of 508 (773154)
11-25-2015 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Modulous
11-22-2015 2:13 PM


Right, so we're finally in violent agreement. Let's stop the apologetics and contortions then.
I listened to a good programme on the Paris murders this week, a bumper sticker summary was Muslims need to become 'French Muslims, not Muslims in France.'
We've done a rubbish job requiring intergration and adoption of our values and challenging those dogmas and cultural practices that are in defiance of them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Modulous, posted 11-22-2015 2:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 2:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 275 of 508 (773156)
11-25-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Tangle
11-25-2015 1:47 PM


We've done a rubbish job requiring intergration and adoption of our values and challenging those dogmas and cultural practices that are in defiance of them.
What does this mean to you, exactly? How does one 'require' integration and adoption of values? Which values count as ours, exactly? And how does one 'challenge' dogmas and cultural practices?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 1:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 2:40 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 11-25-2015 3:09 PM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 276 of 508 (773158)
11-25-2015 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Modulous
11-25-2015 2:20 PM


There you go again.
You have a stab at it first - what is it that you don't think our society should accept?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 2:20 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 2:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 277 of 508 (773159)
11-25-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Tangle
11-25-2015 2:40 PM


There you go again.
I'm sorry if asking you to be specific about what you mean by what you said is deemed problematic behaviour.
You have a stab at it first - what is it that you don't think our society should accept?
Infant neonatal non-therapeutic prepuce amputations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 2:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 3:06 PM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 278 of 508 (773160)
11-25-2015 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Modulous
11-25-2015 2:52 PM


Thats's one. (Or rather, two, and I'm not even going to question your reasons for confining your 'surgery' to newborns and infants). Next.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 2:52 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 3:40 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 279 of 508 (773161)
11-25-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Modulous
11-25-2015 2:20 PM


Modulous writes:
What does this mean to you, exactly? How does one 'require' integration and adoption of values? Which values count as ours, exactly? And how does one 'challenge' dogmas and cultural practices?
This only makes sense to me if you thought Tangle was saying we should put more pressure on immigrants to assimilate. I thought he was saying the opposite. Whatever the case, I must be completely not understanding at least one of you.
Perplexed.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 2:20 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 3:44 PM Percy has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 280 of 508 (773163)
11-25-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tangle
11-25-2015 3:06 PM


Thats's one. (Or rather, two, and I'm not even going to question your reasons for confining your 'surgery' to newborns and infants). Next.
So now I answered your question, can you answer mine? We'll start with this one: You claim our current efforts to 'requir{e} intergration' are 'rubbish'. What improvements did you have in mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 3:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 5:33 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 281 of 508 (773164)
11-25-2015 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Percy
11-25-2015 3:09 PM


I don't know how the misunderstanding exists so I'm not sure how I can help without sounding condescending. Tangle intimated agreement with the slogan 'French Muslims, not Muslims in France' and argued that we are doing a poor job at requiring integration and at condemning cultural perversions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 11-25-2015 3:09 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Percy, posted 11-25-2015 4:02 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 282 of 508 (773166)
11-25-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Modulous
11-25-2015 3:44 PM


You're right, I got my signals crossed jumping between the different Islamic threads and misinterpreted what Tangle was saying. Sorry. If I skip back to my post from a couple days ago I can see the thread of logic I was originally following.
I guess I should try to clear up any confusion I may have caused. Tangle earlier seemed to be arguing that the Islam followed by immigrants was in need of reform, which I disagree with. He later argued that greater assimilation of Islamic immigrants was necessary, that past efforts have been a failure, but I can only agree with some of this. I don't think there's evidence that ethnic or religious conclaves are bad.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 3:44 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 283 of 508 (773173)
11-25-2015 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Modulous
11-25-2015 3:40 PM


Modulous writes:
So now I answered your question, can you answer mine? We'll start with this one: You claim our current efforts to 'requir{e} intergration' are 'rubbish'. What improvements did you have in mind?
You haven't answered my question, you've given one example of a practice that you disaprove of. Also it's a practice that is already illegal - at least in the female versions. You've also defined it in such a way as to exclude it in older children - which is odd.
Let's agree that anything that is already illegal under UK law is something that we'd both say is part of our culture that we want those that wish to join us to comply with. That would include FGM, honour crime, slavery, Jihad etc.
That much hopefully is obvious.
Where we've failed is in not enforcing those laws - we've routinely allowed some of those practices to continue without challenge and tried not to think too hard about others because of mistaken ideas of multiculturalism and PC fears of accusations of racism.
So my first requirement is that we enforce our own laws. I assume you don't have a problem with that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 3:40 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 5:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 284 of 508 (773174)
11-25-2015 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Tangle
11-25-2015 5:33 PM


You haven't answered my question, you've given one example of a practice that you disaprove of.
Which you asked for.
Also it's a practice that is already illegal - at least in the female versions.
It's the ones that aren't already illegal I was referring to, obviously.
You've also defined it in such a way as to exclude it in older children - which is odd.
You said you weren't going to question this issue in your previous post, but here you are bringing it up for a second time. That's odd.
I have reasons - they aren't on topic here.
So my first requirement is that we enforce our own laws. I assume you don't have a problem with that?
No. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. If things aren't as you think they should be, how do you propose to change it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2015 5:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2015 4:28 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 285 of 508 (773179)
11-26-2015 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Modulous
11-25-2015 5:55 PM


Modulous writes:
If things aren't as you think they should be...
I thought we had agreed that things aren't as WE think they should be?
.... how do you propose to change it?
Yesterday I read the Children's Commissioners report - or rather, so as to prevent further pedantry, the summary report - on Protecting children from harm. The subject was child sexual abuse not holy Jihad, but there's a section in it dealing with what they describe as Black and Ethnic Minority groups. They found that children from Asian/Asian British communities are under-represented in the statistics. And that's the core problem - our ethnic minority groups live in ethnic minority communities which allow their cultural practices to continue independantly of the host populations culture and values. The result of that in the case of child abuse is that the "decisions and interventions were based on maintaining 'honour' such as covering up the abuse, relocating the victim and/or family, and forced marriage".
Now how to deal with that core problem is a vast and difficult topic, but it starts with those of us that wish the harm to stop, speaking out and not continually making excuses for them, as has been done for a generation or more. All our institutions, from schools and hospitals through the criminal justice system and social services really need to start identifying, reporting and prosecuting 'cultural' crimes and there does at last seem to be a turning tide on this. You never know, we might even get a prosecution for FGM at some point.
It also means recognising that some of these harms originate from religious belief systems not simply cultural practices. Somehow we need to promote moderate, reforming Islam and condemn its extreme versions. Part of the problem is that there has been a practice of importing Imams from the home country to preach in UK mosques - these have tended to be uneducated and preach immoderate versions of the faith. This is not the way to reform a religion - it's the way to preserve it.
I'm timed out....I'll happily read your solutions.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2015 5:55 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Percy, posted 11-26-2015 7:20 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 289 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
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