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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 301 of 508 (773243)
11-27-2015 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Tangle
11-27-2015 2:53 AM


Meanwhile several hundred people died in Paris.
You think this is a problem?
What is wrong with everyone? Non-Muslim Frenchmen have killed more Parisians than Islamists. Maybe we should be getting rid of them?
What about alcohol? Surely we can more efficiently enact an alcohol law that saves more lives than this?
If it's lives we're worried about.
In the meantime 3 or more orders of magnitude niore people are dying in Syria, Iraq etc. So no, a few scores of dead people does not a problem make.
Europe is on the highest terror threat levels. There's the largest manhunt every organised in France and Belgium. The UK government is about to vote on the bombing Syria and will win. The UK opposition party is about to self-destruct over it. The UK Children's Commissioner reported that British Asians are covering up child abuse and blaming the abused for 'dishonouring' the abusers. The United Nations Security Council voted unanimously to 'take all necessary measures' to deal with ISIL in Syria. UK citizens are fighting against us, publicly beheading innocent captives in the name of Allah and being 'droned' in response. Russian passenger and fighter aircraft are shot out of the sky causing instability between superpowers. Extremist religious believers are in control of millions of people, making their lives intolerable and causing mass migration across the middle east and Europe.
And that was just November.
If you think that we are able to control Turkish missiles, Russian Airplanes, civil wars, and foreign sovereignty issues by integrating Muslims into Britishness - then I am all ears. Unfortunately you seem to enjoy grandstanding, pissing and moaning over actually suggesting anything.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 2:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 12:34 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 302 of 508 (773245)
11-27-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Astrophile
11-26-2015 7:48 PM


That sounds all right, but during the 1930s would you have proposed treating all Germans and Austrians with equal dignity and respect even if they held abhorrent beliefs?
Yes. You can keep coming up with things guys, but the abhorrence of the belief won't impact my statement.
To come up to date, I wouldn't treat members of the British National Party with the same respect that I would give to most other people.
Well that's fine, but being a member of a Party is an activity, not a belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Astrophile, posted 11-26-2015 7:48 PM Astrophile has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 303 of 508 (773246)
11-27-2015 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by vimesey
11-26-2015 6:11 PM


I'm less interested in the respect issue than in whether hate speech constitutes a crime. I'm only familiar with US law, and of course you're both in Britain, so my comments may not be relevant to you, Modulous and Tangle. Much hate speech is protected in the US, but there are limits. Probably "homosexuals are evil" is protected, while "homosexuals should be thrown off buildings" may not be. The latter might "incite an immediate breach of the peace" (Supreme Court, Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 572 (1942)). If the breach isn't immediate it might be considered conspiracy if some followers interpret instructions in a sermon as orders to commit a crime.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by vimesey, posted 11-26-2015 6:11 PM vimesey has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 304 of 508 (773247)
11-27-2015 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by vimesey
11-26-2015 6:11 PM


And in particular, if that individual preaches publicly that their entire creed and identity is inextricably bound with ideas which (in part at least) we find abhorrent, (and indeed argues that other people's creeds and identities should be similarly bound) then it becomes extremely hard to separate the two. Or at the very least, to be seen to be separating the two.
I will never be able to say that I respect a vocal racist, or a preacher of homophobic hatred. The word "respect" means far more to me than that. That does not mean that I would deny them their basic human rights - just that I need to get above that basic level of human rights, before I use the word "respect" in relation to someone.
Again, speaking out all the time and preaching are actions. I am not saying we should treat everyone like the queen, our spouses and our friends regardless of their deeds.
But I have a good number of friends who have big issues with homosexuality. They know my sexuality is in contrast to their norms. They don't treat me poorly, they don't spit at me, they don't rant about my sins.
This is to what I am referring. Most Muslims have very conservative views, some of which I really dislike - including a belief in God and an afterlife. If we can't learn to live alongside such people and treat them with respect and dignity, then we're doomed to alienate Muslims, inhibit integration, and therefore we'll have to live with the consequences of this.
They treat me well, I treat them well. I think we should, by default, treat people equally well - even if we know going in that we disagree with their opinions. If they commit a crime, we should treat them as we would anyone committing that same crime. We certainly shouldn't let them drown in the sea because we are afraid some of them have views that run in contrast with what we believe to be our 'values'.
I'm surprised that people have found this controversial enough to spend so much time on it.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by vimesey, posted 11-26-2015 6:11 PM vimesey has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 305 of 508 (773259)
11-27-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Modulous
11-27-2015 8:23 AM


Modulous writes:
You think this is a problem?
This is such a crass thing to say, that I would normally suspect trolling. I can only suggest that you look up the purpose of terrorism.
What is wrong with everyone?
When everyone is disagreeing with you, it's prudent to consider that you might be in the wrong.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 8:23 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 1:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 306 of 508 (773260)
11-27-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Tangle
11-27-2015 12:34 PM


This is such a crass thing to say
Well what's important is that you have the high ground, and we all know how you like to ignore debate and focus instead on ensuring everybody is aware what a terrible person I am. As if that will change things.
6 score deaths and you think this is a blip on the radar of problems that we face? Get a fucking grip, man and stop being so worried about the fact that the PC thing to do is sound sad about it.
How many children died in Africa from malnutrition related complications this year? Millions. How many people have died in the civil war and its associated conflicts? Hundreds of thousands. How many refugees have died escaping war? Tens of thousands.
If you want to call barely over 100 French people dying a problem - that's fine. But at the scale we are talking about here, its a negligible problem. One which we seemed determined to spend a disproportionate amount of money 'combating' and which we'll no doubt lose fundamental freedoms for too. As you say, we also want to deploy expensive explosive devices as part of the solution.
After all, we stopped terrorism after we did that after 2001 right?
When everyone is disagreeing with you, it's prudent to consider that you might be in the wrong.
Well, when you decide to grow some balls and proffer some actual opinions as to solutions to the problems you think exist I'll be more prepared to take such advice from you.
I can only suggest that you look up the purpose of terrorism.
Is that really all you can suggest?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 12:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 1:13 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 317 by Percy, posted 11-28-2015 8:52 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 307 of 508 (773262)
11-27-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Modulous
11-27-2015 1:06 PM


Well that's a first - never been accused of PCism before. By anyone - generally the opposite. I feel uplifted.
Your obsession with false comparisons and body counts is doing you no favours - I refer you again to the objectives of terrorism. Here's a clue, it's sometimes called assymetric warfare.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 1:06 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 1:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 308 of 508 (773263)
11-27-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Tangle
11-27-2015 1:13 PM


Your obsession with false comparisons and body counts is doing you no favours - I refer you again to the objectives of terrorism. Here's a clue, it's sometimes called assymetric warfare.
What was the point of this message?
Just tell me what your fucking point is about the objectives of terrorism. I'm sick of your dancing. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 1:13 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 1:41 PM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 309 of 508 (773265)
11-27-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Modulous
11-27-2015 1:15 PM


Sigh.
You made the incredibly crass point that only 200 people died in the French massacre, as if body count had anything to do with it or worse, doesn't matter. Then there was the suggestion that we should 'get rid of' the non-Muslim Frenchmen that have killed other Frenchmen. As if these were valid comparators.
You then made an even stupider comapison to more dying in Syria and Iraq than in Paris as if all sides are equal in this. You simply will not accept, despite your wriggling, that one side really does have the higher ground and that some ideas and values are better than others and need defending.
It's our way of life that is being threatened, not just our lives. That's what terrorism is about. But of course you know this, you'd just prefer to ignore it.
Terrorism is an attempt to change our way of life and it's starting to do it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 1:15 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 1:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 310 of 508 (773266)
11-27-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Tangle
11-27-2015 1:41 PM


It's our way of life that is being threatened, not just our lives. That's what terrorism is about. But of course you know this, you'd just prefer to ignore it.
Terrorism is an attempt to change our way of life and it's starting to do it.
I'm proposing we don't let it.
You are proposing we haven't made enough changes.
Terrorism's goal is to exploit fear. I'm not afraid. You seem to be. The Politically Correct thing to do is make a big deal out it, spend lots of money and erode freedom.
So now we have pointlessly gone down that rabbit hole, and you have hopefully mined all the different ways you can try and paint me a bad person out of it, can we get back to the point? If you remember, you were trying to get me to make suggestions regarding integrating Muslims into British society in response to me asking for yours. When I pointed out that since I didn't think there was much need to change our way of life and that you think there apparently is such a need - you should take the lead in suggesting how to make the improvements you think are needed. You leapt down a unnecessary rabbit hole regarding my views about not thinking there is much we should do, only to tell me we shouldn't change our way of life at the bottom of my hole - the very point I was making to begin with. I can't read your mind and agree or disagree with things you haven't posted here. So, picking up where we left off....
quote:
Apparently you feel very strongly we should do something more, but I haven't see anything specific from you. Really the best I can get from you is that we should 'improve' things and criticize ideas we don't like more.
Is there really nothing else on your mind?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 1:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 2:48 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 319 by Percy, posted 11-28-2015 9:19 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 311 of 508 (773267)
11-27-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Modulous
11-27-2015 1:53 PM


Modulous writes:
Terrorism's goal is to exploit fear. I'm not afraid.
Good, that's two of us. Sadly this is not about you and me. I have a grasp of risk but the public at large do not. People are cancelling holidays and travel plans. Resorts are deserted. If you want a really cheap holiday, I suggest you go to Sharm El Sheikh - if you can get a flight. Terrorism has changed travel, not just air travel. I was in London last week, I have absolutely no fear of terrorism - the odds of being involved are tiny - but I was interested in how it was on my mind as I was crammed into a carriage between three Asian young men. On the radio this week people were explaining how they were begging their children to leave London and a woman from Swansea had cancelled her annual trip to the Christmas markets in Birmingham. Like it or not, terrorism works.
Good The Politically Correct thing to do is make a big deal out it, spend lots of money and erode freedom.
What crap. That's what's actually happening - not what is politically correct. It will continue the more the terrorists manage to blow western people to bits indiscriminately in persuit of their religious and political goals.
Some rabbit hole - it's the sodding point of all this.
you have hopefully mined all the different ways you can try and paint me a bad person out of it
If you make statements like you have, you have only yourself to blame. You did the painting and others noticed.
I'm ignoring you distraction tactics regarding other points for the moment, I'm more interested in how deep you can dig your hole.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 1:53 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 312 of 508 (773269)
11-27-2015 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Tangle
11-27-2015 2:48 PM


I'm ignoring you distraction tactics regarding other points for the moment, I'm more interested in how deep you can dig your hole.
Well thank you for making explicit that you are a troll, but I've noticed you've ignored my 'distraction tactics' of asking you to say something substantive throughout the entire discussion. When you have finished ignoring the topic in favour of attacking me personally, here is a good starting point:
What does this mean to you, exactly? How does one 'require' integration and adoption of values? Which values count as ours, exactly? And how does one 'challenge' dogmas and cultural practices?
I'm sorry if asking you to be specific about what you mean by what you said is deemed problematic behaviour.
So now I answered your question, can you answer mine?
But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. If things aren't as you think they should be, how do you propose to change it?
what changes do you propose that will result in legal procedures being followed to your liking?
Apparently you feel very strongly we should do something more to encourage integration of Muslims, but I haven't see anything specific from you. Really the best I can get from you is that we should 'improve' things and criticize ideas we don't like more.
Is there really nothing else on your mind?
I suspect the real reason you are trying to make this personal, rather than have a discussion about integrating British Muslims - a discussion you started, is because you are clueless.
We could always go back to discussing something actually problematic:
For instance. The Alawites face an existential threat in ISIS. The Alawites are Shia - but they are also a particularly weird form of Shia that, for instance, does not pray 5 times a day. If ISIS gets their hands on them, they're dead. All of them.
So do we help the Alawites? Well there are other factions helping the Alawites. Iran, noticeably, as well as Russia. If we help the Alawites, we are entering a de facto military alliance with the Shia and Russia.
On the other hand, if the Alawites fall, then so does Damascus for sure. The internally displaced civilians will become refugees and the refugee crisis will be three times as worse as it is today.
Of course, the Alawites HAVE to fall. We want them gone. But if it happens now - we're fucked.
If we do attack ISIS we strengthen the Alawites for now, but what happens if they are attacked by the many other militant groups that want them dead as soon as ISIS is pushed back enough to stop fighting the militant groups?
Or do we contain for now, and push from Iraq? Yet more Shia alliance here, which is messy and risks pushing them straight at Assad, destroying what's left of Syria's stability entirely.
But it is a much more difficult topic than cultural integration, so I don't know if that's such a good idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 2:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 3:43 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 320 by Percy, posted 11-28-2015 9:40 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 313 of 508 (773273)
11-27-2015 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Modulous
11-27-2015 3:15 PM


But there's no problem, why do you care what the answer to this non-problem is? Don't we just do as you suggest - nothing? After all, the Paris massacre only killed a couple of hundred peaople. Apparently there are no further consequences. Why are you so interested in answers to problems you don't accept as problems?
I'm currently being very nice to Muslims. And Jews and Christians. In fact mostly I'm being nice to people without actually knowing what their religions and sexual preferences are. Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse. Sadly people still keep getting killed. So that tactic doesn't seem to be working too well. But as there's no actual problem.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 3:15 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 3:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 314 of 508 (773274)
11-27-2015 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Tangle
11-27-2015 3:43 PM


But there's no problem, why do you care what the answer to this non-problem is? Don't we just do as you suggest - nothing? After all, the Paris massacre only killed a couple of hundred peaople. Apparently there are no further consequences. Why are you so interested in answers to problems you don't accept as problems?
If you don't want to discuss your ideas then the discussion, by definition, is over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 3:43 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2015 5:50 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 315 of 508 (773284)
11-28-2015 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Modulous
11-27-2015 3:45 PM


Well, if we now think that there is a problem, I think it's in three linked parts.
1. The wars in the Middle East
2. Islam
3. Immigration and integration
They're rather large subjects.
I have very little to say about the first, I wrongly thought that intervening in Iraq would be likely to help matters there though I disliked the Blair/Bush coalition intensely. It seems to me that it has to be sorted out locally with international help.
Islam needs reforming. It's origin is in war and it retains its jihad teachings such that it is possible to read their books and justify extremist actions. In practice, this re-interpretation is happening outside Islam's home territories and in some countries within it. That process of reform needs encouraging.
We have allowed our immigrant communities to practice a lot of the things we disaprove of and that are bad for our society for fear of being accused of racism. This has allowed a proportion of those communities to hang on to beliefs and practices that are actually against our laws and is allowing a few extremists to develop amonst us undisturbed. Like the bumper sticker slogan they're Muslims in Britain, not British Muslims. This has to change faster that it has been.
Now what you want to do with that is up to you, but I'm timed out again. Life goes on.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 3:45 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Modulous, posted 11-28-2015 6:02 AM Tangle has replied

  
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