Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 406 of 508 (773584)
12-04-2015 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by vimesey
12-04-2015 8:56 AM


In your view, then, we should separate our analysis of ISIS when it supports and promotes terrorism in the West, from our analysis of it when it operates in its own back yard in Syria/Iraq ? Does that not lead to a severely selective conclusion ?
The reasons an Iraqi Sunni might be motivated to ethnically cleanse their lands, raping and murdering along the way is likely to differ from the motivations of a Western Muslim radicalized into blowing themselves up in a Western city.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 8:56 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 9:36 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 409 of 508 (773588)
12-04-2015 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by vimesey
12-04-2015 9:36 AM


But then we're being selective about analysing individuals within ISIS.
Yes. This helps us say specific things in a discussion.
To view those attacks as separated from the depravity which ISIS exhibits in Syria/Iraq is to paint a highly selective picture of those who carry out the attacks.
Painting a jihadist as not caring about life is a highly selective picture. It is, itself, groupish dehumanisation. It is also not true. Pointing out a way in which somebody's highly selective picture is so selective as to be wrong, is not grounds to accuse me of painting a selective picture.
It would be like focusing upon Halliburton's charitable donations (I'm assuming it makes some), whilst putting into a different box the billions it made from the Iraq war.
It would be like calling all of Halliburton's, and it's subsidiaries' employees, evil because of the company's actions.
We can discuss the situation in Syria if you like. I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 9:36 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 10:15 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 413 of 508 (773592)
12-04-2015 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by vimesey
12-04-2015 10:15 AM


Nevertheless, I would disagree with your conclusion.
My conclusion is that western suicide terrorists do indeed value life.
If we allow the sorts of rhetoric you quoted earlier (which paints terrorists as noble freedom fighters, with holy character and unassailable morality) to be separated from the amoral depravity that is the actual reality of the organisation which wants to recruit idealistic young potential bombers, then we make the job easier for them.
I see you feel very strongly about this, but it doesn't seem relevant to what I was talking to Tangle about, namely that saying 'they' do not value life, citing, in part, their suicide attacks, is wrong. I am saying that this concept is 'cartoon evil baddy' imagery, that hinders rather than helps understanding our enemies and rationally constructing our response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 10:15 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 10:44 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 417 of 508 (773599)
12-04-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by vimesey
12-04-2015 10:44 AM


My apologies for not being clearer - I was referring to your conclusion that treating them as baddies (I prefer to say "part of a depraved organisation", but just because the word "baddies" utterly fails to capture it) is not the path to least blood.
Since you were attempting to be clear in this quote, I can only blame you for your equivocation within it. I made no such conclusion.
I am quite sure that a number of actual and potential recruits are idealistic and captivated by the sorts of rhetoric you've quoted.
Which is evidence they are not cartoonish bad guys, but humans with complex motivations, including empathy for the loss of lives.
But I do not think that we assist ourselves by ignoring the murders, rapes, torture that ISIS is perpetrating.
Nobody is doing such a thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 10:44 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 11:38 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 421 of 508 (773604)
12-04-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by Tangle
12-04-2015 10:59 AM


Do you suppose that once they are persuaded by the jihadists, they lose their emotions?
Yes.
Very well.
I thought we agreed that ISIS is not staffed solely by psychopaths
Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/), also known asthough sometimes distinguished fromsociopathy (/soʊsiˈɒpəθi/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.
We did. I was pointing out that it was therefore ironic that you that ended up arguing that ISIS is staffed by psychopaths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 10:59 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 11:10 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 423 of 508 (773606)
12-04-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Tangle
12-04-2015 11:10 AM


I have never argued that ISIS was staffed solely by psychopaths.
I see.
So you arguing that they don't value human life.
That they have lost their emotions of empathy. They are manipulative and antisocial.
But you are not arguing they are psychopaths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 11:10 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 12:21 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 428 of 508 (773611)
12-04-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by vimesey
12-04-2015 11:38 AM


My apology was sincere, but since you seem intent on making something of this, I will re-phrase what I said. "I was referring to your statement 'I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me.' That was the opinion with which I was disagreeing." Does that work for you ?
So you think we should treating them as if they were cartoonish bad guys? By which I mean, two dimensional. You think we should abandon any attempt to understand these people as complex humans?
This is an example of the selectivity, which I think encourages potential recruits to think "it's OK to affiliate myself with ISIS - I'll be one of the noble and good ones, not one of the vile ones."
So I'm prohibited from presenting evidence for my claim that our opponents have human motivations and are not convenient nonhuman fairytale monsters because acknowledging this I would encourage ISIS recruitment?
That seems like nonsense to me. It certainly won't be useful in combating ISIS to characiture them in our assessments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 11:38 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 7:17 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 432 of 508 (773620)
12-04-2015 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tangle
12-04-2015 12:21 PM


6,666 posts
Tangle writes:
Our enemies have a death cult, they hold life cheap.
{After posting evidence in favour of it...}
Tangle writes:
How does any of this suggest that they do not hold life cheap?
Tangle writes:
Mod writes:
So you arguing that they don't value human life.
As you know, I am arguing the opposite
You are arguing that they do value human life?
You've taken a definition pf psychopathy and are trying to apply it to anybody who behaves in the ways that ISIS are behaving.
I've taken your characterisation the ISIS membership and shown how it matches up with psychopathy. Thus showing that despite your earlier protestations the contrary, you have now made an argument that amounts to the very thing you made such a fuss about before.
It is quite possible for people to have demonised others to the extent that they are able to do despicable things to them but still be good husbands and fathers who have feeling for their friends and family.
Exactly the point I was making.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 12:21 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 3:10 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 442 of 508 (773635)
12-04-2015 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by vimesey
12-04-2015 7:17 PM


My point remains that in my view, it is more effective in limiting their appeal to potential recruits, to emphasise that they are murdering, raping and torturing innocent people, including Muslims, than it is to characterise them as noble freedom fighters, forced by external pressures into reluctantly taking action.
Sounds entirely feasible.
What is it with the constant reference to cartoons and fairytale monsters ?
quote:
Appealing to my better nature? I'm a villain! Here is My Card! "Eve L. Duehr: Academy of Evil graduate, aspiring tyrant, kicker of kittens, and spontaneous singer of Barney songs." I crossed the Moral Event Horizon while still in grade school and have never once looked back. And you think you can talk me out of my evil deeds? Ahahahahahahahahaa!
Thus, they are expected to Kick the Dog and never Pet the Dog. If they acted differently, they'd lose their Evil ranking. Especially ironic if the reason they fell was because they wanted freedom from constraints on their actions. Whatever action they as a good guy wanted to do is considered "bad", so they have to do other bad things as well now. After a while, they usually forget about whatever goal it was that turned them Evil in the first place.
I was just arguing against turning our image of our enemies into the above, courtesy of TVTropes.
Once again, they are really beheading, raping, torturing and murdering innocent people. There is nothing cartoonish or fairytale-like about it.
I'm glad we agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 7:17 PM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Dogmafood, posted 12-05-2015 8:46 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 446 of 508 (773648)
12-05-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Dogmafood
12-05-2015 8:46 AM


The problem isn't with the vilification of the head choppers and puritans.
Having this kind of mental image leads to...
We should despise and destroy those people.
So yes - how we think of our enemies is important as it drives our policy decisions.
The problem is being able to single them out.
There are lots of problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Dogmafood, posted 12-05-2015 8:46 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Dogmafood, posted 12-06-2015 6:05 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 449 of 508 (773670)
12-06-2015 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Dogmafood
12-06-2015 6:05 AM


Sure and how we should think of them is as head choppers and puritans. This is not a fabrication or propaganda. They really are killing non combatants deliberately. They really are throwing people from high buildings and executing women for their fashion choices. We should be motivated by these atrocities. We should be angry and dangerous in response.
Wow, Adam Gadahn might have struggled to justify killing tens of thousands of strangers with such brevity. You are right, to call this propaganda would be a disservice, perhaps you would prefer 'war mongering masterpiece'? Naturally we should continue killing and bombing blindly because of how effective this has proven over the last century.
There are lots of problems and we should not mischaracterize the truth nor should we ignore our culpability. There are also such things as monsters and this idea about loving your enemy should be held in moderation.
War mongers and those infected with propaganda often seem to confuse 'know thy enemy' with 'love thy enemy'.
quote:
Of course the people don't want war...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Dogmafood, posted 12-06-2015 6:05 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Dogmafood, posted 12-08-2015 9:43 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 460 of 508 (773727)
12-08-2015 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Dogmafood
12-08-2015 9:43 AM


Pointing out the atrocities that have really occurred is not exactly war mongering is it?
Not necessarily, no.
I have specifically spoken against 'blindly bombing' anybody.
Great.
What else do we need to know about them in order to conclude that we should resist them?
It seems to me that one's manner of resistance should be tailored to the enemies one is resisting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Dogmafood, posted 12-08-2015 9:43 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 503 of 508 (817789)
08-20-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Faith
08-20-2017 8:26 AM


Re: "Europe is Lost" says Barcelona's Chief Rabbi
Barcelona's chief rabbi has urged Jews to move to Israel because Europe has been "lost" to radical Islam, and Spain has been a "hub of Islamist terror for all of Europe" for years.
HAHAHAHAHA! Jewish comedians are the best, even when they are being this dark. Move to Israel to avoid Islamic terrorism! Nice one!
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Faith, posted 08-20-2017 8:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024