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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 147 of 508 (772662)
11-17-2015 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
11-17-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Ringo writes:
Exactly. When people want to die for their cause, killing them is not the way to defeat them. It's the way to encourage them.
Well they better get ready for some grade A encouragement in the coming weeks from France, Russia, and the USA.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:04 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 165 of 508 (772693)
11-17-2015 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by dronestar
11-17-2015 3:36 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
Hi dronestar,
What can be done now? Good question, I don't know.
ISIL has to be stopped. Why? Because they are fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things.
It is not like they can be bartered with and bought off like the mongol horde dude. Do you agree they have to be literally stopped form doing what they are doing?
dronestar writes:
But it would need mankind to evolve at an incredible rate.
Maybe accelerationism would bring about our collective demise, passively allowing the complete dismantling of all Infidel and non Sharia civilizations. This would in turn lead to a new beginning for novoman Where we could build our new pacifist utopia on the bones of our rapacious intolerant ancestors.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 3:36 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 10:12 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 212 of 508 (772797)
11-18-2015 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
11-18-2015 11:04 AM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Ringo writes:
And France, Russia and the USA had better get ready for wave after wave of new recruits and new terrorism.
Do you think that if the US practiced complete pacifist isolationism that we would not be victims of terrorism?
If in your opinion, bombing ISIL will bring more terrorist to our shores; then what will not bombing them do?
I believe not responding with force would only embolden them into believing Allah is giving them the victory they are fighting for.
And just what is that they are fighting for? Do you know why they want to kill us? BECAUSE WE ARE INFIDELS and must be put to the sword. They are bringing about their own destruction because this kind of idiotic mentality is self defeating. The world is not ready to go back to the middle ages and bow to sharia law.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 10:56 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 229 of 508 (772843)
11-19-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by ringo
11-19-2015 10:56 AM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Ringo writes:
No. I advocate keeping our hands clean for the sake of cleanliness. Cleanliness may have a cost.
To late for that sorry but nice sentiment. We are in bed and there is a wet stain. Je suis de' sole'
Ringo writes:
IF they lose, it will be because they don't have the support of the Muslim world. Encouraging Muslims to support them is not the way to defeat them.
They will lose because they do not have the support of the world. Not just Muslims. They will lose because they are nothing more than thugs with guns running amok. Once their leadership, money and ordinance runs out they will slither back into the crevices from whence they came to rebuild for another day.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 12:10 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 371 of 508 (773513)
12-03-2015 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by ringo
12-02-2015 2:25 PM


Ringo writes:
Nonsense. Most of us are willing to risk our lives for something - e.g. our children. Suicide bombers are just more sincere in their commitment.
Ted Bundy and Jeff Dahmer where also sincere in their commitments.
Ringo writes:
We call people heroes when they die for our cause. Why call them something else when they die for their own?
I'm sure somewhere out there are people who call Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer a hero.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by ringo, posted 12-02-2015 2:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 12-03-2015 10:41 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 383 of 508 (773552)
12-03-2015 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
12-03-2015 10:41 AM


(Godwin alert)
Ringo writes:
They weren't willingly risking their lives; they were just indulging in risky behaviour, like drug addiction. It's not analogous to two sides in a war.
Ok then......how about Nazis remember those guys. The BADDIES.
They where the ones in Black and Gray wearing skulls on their caps, the ones that wanted to uhmmm....ya know, take over the whole Earth. You know... kill all Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsys, Blacks... Anyone not of Aryan descent.
Suicide bombers, blowing themselves up because they are more committed to their causes is no more laudable than Hitlers cowardly act of shooting himself hunkering in a bunker.
Sick, decrepit ideology is just that. No heros, just dead bastards.
Whether you like it or not there is a right side and a wrong side and
ISIL is on the wrong side. Fuck them and anyone who wants to legitimize them.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 12-03-2015 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by dronestar, posted 12-04-2015 9:28 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 10:53 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 415 of 508 (773597)
12-04-2015 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by dronestar
12-04-2015 9:28 AM


Re: bump
So, hypothetically, if the US was guilty of fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things, like ISIL is doing, you would strongly urge similar consequences to the US, right?
The US and it's allies are guilty of all manner of horrors going back through history yes its true. Most all countries have a horrid violent hegemonic past. Does that mean that today countries or terrorist now have a moral pass to do the same? Is that not a sophomoric attitude to hold?
Your ability to sit back in your safe comfy home spewing pacifist simplistic diatribes on your computer is of course a direct result of someone else doing the very things you find abhorrent.
Unless you are prepared to grow beans in your front yard and ride a bicycle or horse for transportation, while you eek out a self sustaining existence without the things that modern governments provide; it would seem your armchair insipid piety is also a exercise in hypocrisy.
Edited by 1.61803, : add coma.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by dronestar, posted 12-04-2015 9:28 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by dronestar, posted 12-04-2015 10:54 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 424 of 508 (773607)
12-04-2015 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by ringo
12-04-2015 10:53 AM


I didn't say it was laudable. I said it was no different from bombing civilians.
So you are saying a man walking into a public place and detonating a IED , like say the Boston bomber is no different than bombing civillians.
Lets examine intent: Boston bombers intent to kill everyone he can.
Allie bomb intent: To kill the enemy combatants.
Some civilians where inadvertently killed so I guess that means the intent does not matter to you. All that matters is that they are dead. By that logic a Dr. should be put on trail for murder every time one of his patients dies. That makes perfect sense Ringo.
Ringo writes:
Yes, no doubt God is on your side. He was on your side during World War 2. He was on your side during World War 1. He was on your side during the genocide of Native Americans. He's always on your side because you're always right.
Leave God out of it. The salient point I believe is thanks to the people of the Allied forces we do not have the kind of world that would prevent you from taking any political view. Unless you are a fascist you should be able to recognize the world is a better place without totalitarian fascist regimes. The losers of those wars started them.
As far as the American Indian is concerned I'd say show me a country that did not kill, enslave conquer and subjugate and I'll show you a enslaved conquered and subjugated country. Btw feel free to donate your current land and property to what ever local American Indian Tribe of your choice.
Ringo writes:
I'm not legitimizing anybody. I'm demonizing both sides.
As is your right sir.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by dronestar, posted 12-04-2015 11:26 AM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 11:37 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 430 of 508 (773617)
12-04-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by ringo
12-04-2015 11:37 AM


You said there is no difference between a suicide bomber,, who wants to kill innocent non combatants and a allied bomber who accidentally kills non combatants.
I said intent is the difference.
If you think that a man like the Boston bomber is no different than the man ordered on a mission to bomb enemy combatants then you seem to not know the difference between someone who purposely wants to kill and maim innocents civilians and someone who did it by accident.
You then go on to espouse that the accidental killing is no different or worse than a drunk driver who killed by accident.
Ok, I guess we dont see it the same.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 11:37 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 461 of 508 (773728)
12-08-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Percy
12-08-2015 7:51 AM


Re: bump
Percy writes:
I interpreted it as a response to your assertion that moral offenders have no right to make moral judgments.
Yes and that because of past moral transgressions of a state or country or group they should not automatically be forfeit any consideration or credibility.
Edited by 1.61803, : add "They"

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Percy, posted 12-08-2015 7:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-08-2015 11:15 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 466 by dronestar, posted 12-08-2015 12:50 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 465 of 508 (773738)
12-08-2015 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by ringo
12-08-2015 11:15 AM


Re: bump
Yes.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-08-2015 11:15 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 479 of 508 (773794)
12-09-2015 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by dronestar
12-08-2015 12:50 PM


Re: bump
dronestar writes:
Some states (most?, all?) don't allow convicted sociopathic axe murderers to vote or serve on jury duties. Do you think that is also a mistake? Should sociopaths be allowed to influence your society/culture? Should convicted child rapists be allowed to teach in school?
I thought we where talking about countries, cultures doing evil things in the name of hegemony.
I thought your point was that since the U.S. and it's allies are guilty of invading, bombing and killing then when the shoe is on the other foot ISIL is justified in they're actions in turnabout is fair play.
A nations past sins do not mean the country forfeits the possibility of redemption.
The U.S. nuked Hiroshima . Do we now forfeit any credibility to speak out now against doing such a thing?
The U.S. has conducted Syphilis trials in the past,violating subjects confidence and health. Doe that mean the U.S. must now be looked upon as incapable of conducting honest clinical trails with subject consent, safety being crucial?
I get the feeling you think the U.S. and it's allies are deserved of ISILS brutality and are reaping what they sowed.
I am reminded of this poem for some reason.
quote:
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."
~John Donne
Take care dronestar.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by dronestar, posted 12-08-2015 12:50 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 11:05 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 485 by dronestar, posted 12-09-2015 3:33 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 482 of 508 (773801)
12-09-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 481 by NoNukes
12-09-2015 11:05 AM


Re: bump
NoNukes writes:
Do you really believe having nuked two cities does not cost us any credibility?
No. A nation that speaks out against the obvious evils of such weapons should be encouraged to continue to do so. Do you feel the US should withhold all comment on the subject since we are guilty of doing it in the past?
Well you answered yes to this so I'll move on.
Should Germany be ignored on any issues concerning human rights since they perpetrated the holocaust?
You probably answer yes to this one too.
I guess your right, I should know my audience and never underestimate the power of self righteous indignant attitudes.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 11:05 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by ringo, posted 12-09-2015 12:01 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 488 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 4:30 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 492 of 508 (773881)
12-10-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by dronestar
12-09-2015 3:33 PM


Re: The West has no credibility.
dronestar writes:
Innocent civilians never deserve to be murdered.
I agree.
dronestar writes:
I agree NN. That would be called hypocrisy.
I thought hypocrisy would be if the US continued to manufacture and stock pile nuclear arms rather than reduce them.
I agree RingO. There's a good reason why he wouldn't be allowed on a jury.
I thought Ringo said he would not want to ask Charles Manson his opinions about murder? He said nothing about a jury.
And if you want to know something about murder who better to ask than a convicted murderer.
Yeah, you read that correct, the West strongly believes that murdering a half MILLION Iraqi CHILDREN is a WORTHWHILE activity. Gee, I forgot, in contrast, how many Parisians were killed by terrorists last month? 1.61803, can you do the math on this? What is the murder ratio of innocent civilians of the West and ISIL?
Madeline Albright said something stupid. The Iraq sanctions was a result of trying to get Saddam out of power. It only embolden him.
Many children died, and no it was not worth it. The US and the West does not think it was. I do not believe that can ever be reconciled but it is not the intentions of the West to kill innocent people. That I think is our main disagreement.
Your hyperbole comparing half a million children's death to the fewer in Paris fails. I do not believe any reasonable person wants to see innocent people die.
But there are some people that will do just that to bring about their cause.
dronestar writes:
So, just what kind of ethical credibility does a nation that murders doctors in hospitals, or children via repeating drone strikes have?
It was a mistake. Poor intelligence, a break down in communications who knows? It does not make it alright.
but it was not on purpose. The shit that went down in California and Paris was purposely targeting innocent civilians.
There is the difference. The US and it's allies do not want to kill innocent civilians. ISIL wants to kill innocent civilians.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by dronestar, posted 12-09-2015 3:33 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 12-10-2015 11:49 AM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 495 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2015 3:55 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 497 of 508 (773916)
12-10-2015 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by dronestar
12-10-2015 3:55 PM


Re: The West has no credibility.
Dronestar you have made up your mind that the West has no credibility, is responsible for the terrorism being visited upon them and is willfully bombing doctors and hospitals. I agree it is a horrible situation but then again so is decades of war. I can not defend nor want to defend the indefensible. I simply do not agree or believe it is the ideology and wishes of the West to kill innocent civilians and I do not agree that ISIL should be doing so either. You are a convincing debater and obviously passionate about the subject. Maybe you should run for office somewhere and affect the change you want to see in the world. Take care dronestar.
Edited by 1.61803, : added debater.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2015 3:55 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2015 4:33 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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