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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 154 of 508 (772677)
11-17-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 3:37 PM


Re: The Question
Well said.
I think we could all (ok, most of us - there may be a Cheney/Blair fan or two on here I guess) agree that huge mistakes were made in the recent (and not so recent past).
Acknowledged.
My view, however, is that those mistakes only partially caused what is happening in the Middle East (and to a lesser degree) in the West right now. I personally think that it facilitated it more than it caused it.
Regardless of semantics, however, the evil of ISIS is theirs to own. Blair/Cheney et al have their own crosses to bear - but right here, right now, we need to work out how to stop these particular evil arseholes from murdering as many innocents as they feel like.
Distasteful as it may be, that will almost certainly involve doing our best to kill as many of them as possible.
The wise thing to do in addition, is to try to engage in a more enlightened way with the mainstream of Muslims while we do it.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:37 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:17 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 156 of 508 (772680)
11-17-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by dronestar
11-17-2015 4:17 PM


Re: The Question
You're fighting a battle that is irrelevant to what I was saying, dronestar. The amount of shit I could give as to whether you describe Blair/Cheney's actions as a huge mistake or a war crime, when it comes to fighting fuckers who like to throw gay people off buildings, right here, right now, right today can be measured in fractions by a gnat with constipation.
Prosecute your betes noires at your leisure - but focus on today's evil bastards too.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:17 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:37 PM vimesey has replied
 Message 158 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 4:39 PM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 163 of 508 (772688)
11-17-2015 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dronestar
11-17-2015 4:37 PM


Re: The Question
Ok, one last go.
What Blair/Cheney etc did was utterly indefensible. The only reason I waiver on the war crime definition is the sheer desire to see innocent people suffer which people like Mengele exhibited, and which makes war criminals like them truly worthy of the name. I don't think that Blair/Cheney et al were psychopathic - just criminally irresponsible and self-serving.
This is semantics, however. I agree they were criminally irresponsible, and deserve punishment.
I agree also that their actions contributed to the mess we see in the Middle East today - I apportion some blame to them. Some, not all - because you would have to be stunningly stupid to believe that the situation in the Middle East were that simple that you could blame it all on the actions of a few Western politicians in the 90s/noughties.
However, where I refuse to go is to excuse the sort of evil depravity that ISIS are inflicting (hugely in Syria/Iraq and to a lesser degree in the West) on innocent people, by entirely blaming Western politicians. I repeat - they own their own evil.
We have a choice, right now, here and today. We can sit back smugly, our liberal credentials all shiny and admirable for the adoring pacifist audience, and let the suffering of untold thousands stand and grow in support of our glorious perspicacity. Or we can say, OK, Cheney/Blair were criminals, yes, job done - but we now need to fight these new fuckers as best we can. And whilst that involves not repeating the mistakes of the past if we can, it also involves doing everything we can to stop a fresh evil.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:37 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 9:01 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 292 of 508 (773212)
11-26-2015 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Modulous
11-26-2015 4:16 PM


I still propose treating all Muslims with equal dignity and respect, even if they hold abhorrent beliefs.
So if someone goes around spouting racial hatred against, say, people of black origin in public, should they be treated with dignity and respect, or should they be reported to the police for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act ?
I'm interested in establishing whether in your view, extreme religious views, which are abhorrent to a lot of our values, are worthy of special protection, because they're religious.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 4:16 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 294 of 508 (773215)
11-26-2015 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Modulous
11-26-2015 5:08 PM


Oh I wasn't thinking about thought crimes - I was wondering whether an Imam preaching that gay people are an abomination, and lauding them being thrown off buildings, should be reported to the police for incitement to homophobic hatred under the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 5:19 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 296 of 508 (773218)
11-26-2015 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Modulous
11-26-2015 5:19 PM


Where we differ then, appears to be in the degree of respect we afford to (or perhaps in the definition of the word "respect" in relation to) people who hold and preach views which we find abhorrent.
I suspect you may feel differently, but I have no problem calling abhorrent and unworthy of respect, someone who is a vocal racist. I also have no problem calling abhorrent and unworthy of respect an Imam who preaches murdering gay people.
For the record, I also defend their rights to have whatever views they want. I don't, however, accord them the badge of my respect.
Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 5:19 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 5:49 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 298 of 508 (773220)
11-26-2015 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Modulous
11-26-2015 5:49 PM


I think then that it does come down to a difference in what can be meant by "respect", and/or to the precise circumstances in which that word is used.
The difficulty is in separating a sufficient and decent level of human respect to a particular individual, from our lack of respect for the idea they are preaching.
And in particular, if that individual preaches publicly that their entire creed and identity is inextricably bound with ideas which (in part at least) we find abhorrent, (and indeed argues that other people's creeds and identities should be similarly bound) then it becomes extremely hard to separate the two. Or at the very least, to be seen to be separating the two.
I will never be able to say that I respect a vocal racist, or a preacher of homophobic hatred. The word "respect" means far more to me than that. That does not mean that I would deny them their basic human rights - just that I need to get above that basic level of human rights, before I use the word "respect" in relation to someone.
If you like, a difference between respecting someone's rights, and respecting the person.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2015 5:49 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Percy, posted 11-27-2015 8:34 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 304 by Modulous, posted 11-27-2015 8:35 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 398 of 508 (773574)
12-04-2015 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by Modulous
12-04-2015 8:27 AM


Those emotions exist because they do not regard life as cheap.
So in your view, when ISIS massacres Yazidi men, children and those women they deem too old to rape enjoyably, are they regarding their lives as cheap or not ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 8:27 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 8:49 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 403 of 508 (773581)
12-04-2015 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Modulous
12-04-2015 8:49 AM


In your view, then, we should separate our analysis of ISIS when it supports and promotes terrorism in the West, from our analysis of it when it operates in its own back yard in Syria/Iraq ? Does that not lead to a severely selective conclusion ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 8:49 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:17 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 408 of 508 (773587)
12-04-2015 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Modulous
12-04-2015 9:17 AM


But then we're being selective about analysing individuals within ISIS. (Quite apart from the fact that it is far from the case that it is exclusively Western Muslims who are carrying out terrorist attacks in the West). We read (and I find little reason to doubt) that the recent terrorist attacks in the West have been planned, funded, equipped and trained through ISIS or affiliated groups. To view those attacks as separated from the depravity which ISIS exhibits in Syria/Iraq is to paint a highly selective picture of those who carry out the attacks. It would be like focusing upon Halliburton's charitable donations (I'm assuming it makes some), whilst putting into a different box the billions it made from the Iraq war.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:17 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:57 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 411 of 508 (773590)
12-04-2015 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Modulous
12-04-2015 9:57 AM


I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me.
I am hardly painting them as cartoon evil baddies - I am calling them the depraved and loathsome degenerates that the experiences of the Yazidis and gay people (along with countless others) demonstrate them to be. Cartoons they are not.
Nevertheless, I would disagree with your conclusion. If we allow the sorts of rhetoric you quoted earlier (which paints terrorists as noble freedom fighters, with holy character and unassailable morality) to be separated from the amoral depravity that is the actual reality of the organisation which wants to recruit idealistic young potential bombers, then we make the job easier for them. If on the othrr hand we emphasise that the self-same ISIS which wants to give you your AK47s and IEDs is also raping, murdering, beating and torturing innocent people, including other Muslims, I suggest that the recruitment spiel becomes less attractive.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:57 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 10:26 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 414 by dronestar, posted 12-04-2015 10:27 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 416 of 508 (773598)
12-04-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Modulous
12-04-2015 10:26 AM


My conclusion is that western suicide terrorists do indeed value life.
My apologies for not being clearer - I was referring to your conclusion that treating them as baddies (I prefer to say "part of a depraved organisation", but just because the word "baddies" utterly fails to capture it) is not the path to least blood.
I am quite sure that a number of actual and potential recruits are idealistic and captivated by the sorts of rhetoric you've quoted. I don't think there is a lack of understanding of that. But I do not think that we assist ourselves by ignoring the murders, rapes, torture that ISIS is perpetrating. Again, there's nothing cartoon-like about it - it's really happening.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 10:26 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 10:51 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 427 of 508 (773610)
12-04-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Modulous
12-04-2015 10:51 AM


Since you were attempting to be clear in this quote, I can only blame you for your equivocation within it. I made no such conclusion.
My apology was sincere, but since you seem intent on making something of this, I will re-phrase what I said. "I was referring to your statement 'I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me.' That was the opinion with which I was disagreeing." Does that work for you ?
Which is evidence they are not cartoonish bad guys, but humans with complex motivations, including empathy for the loss of lives.
This is an example of the selectivity, which I think encourages potential recruits to think "it's OK to affiliate myself with ISIS - I'll be one of the noble and good ones, not one of the vile ones." I think it helps to point out that such a disassociation is both morally (and probably practically) impossible.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 10:51 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:48 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 438 of 508 (773628)
12-04-2015 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Modulous
12-04-2015 11:48 AM


So you think we should treating them as if they were cartoonish bad guys? By which I mean, two dimensional. You think we should abandon any attempt to understand these people as complex humans?
Feel free to psychoanalyse as much as you wish. What ISIS is doing is evil and depraved, however, and they are responsible for those actions. My point remains that in my view, it is more effective in limiting their appeal to potential recruits, to emphasise that they are murdering, raping and torturing innocent people, including Muslims, than it is to characterise them as noble freedom fighters, forced by external pressures into reluctantly taking action.
So I'm prohibited from presenting evidence for my claim that our opponents have human motivations and are not convenient nonhuman fairytale monsters because acknowledging this I would encourage ISIS recruitment
What is it with the constant reference to cartoons and fairytale monsters ? Once again, they are really beheading, raping, torturing and murdering innocent people. There is nothing cartoonish or fairytale-like about it.
And you are prohibited from no such thing - certainly not by me. I happen to disagree with you as to an approach to lessening their appeal to potential recruits. I believe that many recruits romanticise ISIS as the embodiment of a struggle against an oppressor - I am of the view that it is a fair challenge to that view, to emphasise that ISIS itself is a brutal, amoral and revolting oppressor of innocent Muslims. You are certainly not prohibited from presenting arguments to the contrary.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:48 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:37 PM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 450 of 508 (773678)
12-07-2015 6:41 AM


Hopefully this might gain a bit of traction.
Just a spark of brightness to add to the discussions. After the London stabbing the other day, someone recorded a Londoner shouting at the attacker, who had been restrained by the police "You ain't no Muslim bruv !" He's thought to be a Muslim, but that's from context and partially from accent. This phrase has now started trending a lot on social media, and has been picked up by the mainstream press.
It'll probably be a bit of a flash in the pan, but I hope it picks up more momentum and contributes to a loud shout of denial against the extremists.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2015 7:49 AM vimesey has not replied

  
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