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Author | Topic: Another one that hurts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
It was very good to hear.
If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims. Sadly, I suspect it'll have as much effect as the 'no true Scotsman' argument has on Faith.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority I wish that were true, but it simply is not the case that what any Muslim condemnation matters to the rest of us. Muslims decry and publicly repudiate terrorism and terrorist actions every time they occur, and people still continue to ask each and every time 'Why don't Muslims condemn terrorist acts' exactly as though nothing had ever been said.
Sadly, I suspect it'll have as much effect as the 'no true Scotsman' argument has on Faith. Or any other argument. But yeah, that calculation is about right. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I think it's more important that non-Muslims take it on board.
If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: I think it's more important that non-Muslims take it on board. I suspect if it happens at all, it will only be if there's persistent and strenuous condemnation by the Muslim communities first. Even so, I think NoNukes is correct.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
ProtoTypical writes: Bombs are a repugnantly blunt instrument but not the same as shooting a female doctor who refuses to wear a niqab. Do you think this makes a difference to the dead doctor? Or does this reasoning just allow you to sleep at night? And what about the men who deliver the bombs? The suicide rates of the military are sky high. Is it because the cruelty the West does to the middle east is EQUAL to the cruelty they do to us? I can't see any difference between the actions of the Paris attackers and the continuing use of drone weapons . . .
quote: Widespread racism and criminal apathy allows the west to commit atrocities on the people of the middle east. It also prevents us from examining our own actions too closely. Until we evolve from barbarians, it is simply not possible for the West to help bring about peace. I had thought the attacks on america on 9/11 would have caused the West to morally ponder the actions the West had perpetrated on others. Through decades of constant support of dictators, terrorists, and destabilizing democratic nations the West should have realized that those actions only spread world-wide conflicts. But I was wrong. There has been no epiphany. No moral evolution. Just more shouts for more "repugnantly blunt" bombs.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from?
Be specific.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
dronestar asks:
From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from? Be specific. Perhaps yours, yourself. After all, droning victims back into the stone age was something you were originally berating.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Percy Member Posts: 22493 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
dronestar writes: From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from? Be specific. I still think you're missing 1.61803's point (though he hasn't confirmed, so I could have misunderstood him). I thought he was saying that past moral transgressions don't forfeit the right to make moral judgments. For an analogy consider a murderer, who still has the right to judge rape and murder wrong. I interpreted it as a response to your assertion that moral offenders have no right to make moral judgments. --Percy
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 375 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
You are right, to call this propaganda would be a disservice, perhaps you would prefer 'war mongering masterpiece'? Naturally we should continue killing and bombing blindly because of how effective this has proven over the last century. quote: Pointing out the atrocities that have really occurred is not exactly war mongering is it? I have specifically spoken against 'blindly bombing' anybody. The problem is not so much with the use of force as it is with the inaccurate use of force.
War mongers and those infected with propaganda often seem to confuse 'know thy enemy' with 'love thy enemy'. What else do we need to know about them in order to conclude that we should resist them? How does one go about loving their enemies anyway? The best that I can do is to treat them as I would expect to be treated. This includes cutting them all kinds of slack before resorting to the use of violence but it doesn't exclude the use of violence entirely.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Pointing out the atrocities that have really occurred is not exactly war mongering is it? Not necessarily, no.
I have specifically spoken against 'blindly bombing' anybody. Great.
What else do we need to know about them in order to conclude that we should resist them? It seems to me that one's manner of resistance should be tailored to the enemies one is resisting.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1530 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Percy writes: I interpreted it as a response to your assertion that moral offenders have no right to make moral judgments. Yes and that because of past moral transgressions of a state or country or group they should not automatically be forfeit any consideration or credibility. Edited by 1.61803, : add "They""You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Jon Inactive Member |
"You ain't no Muslim, bruv." = lying for Muhammad.
If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims. You can't fix a problem by pretending it doesn't exist. Love your enemies!
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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~1.6 writes:
Does that apply to both sides?
Yes and that because of past moral transgressions of a state or country or group they should not automatically be forfeit any consideration or credibility.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Jon writes: You can't fix a problem by pretending it doesn't exist. A Muslim telling another that his beliefs are false is not ignoring it - It's a powerful start. It's probably the only way it can change, from within. Christians telling Muslims they're wrong is unlikely to have much of an effect.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1530 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Yes.
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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