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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 394 of 508 (773570)
12-04-2015 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Modulous
12-04-2015 3:19 AM


Modulous writes:
Jihadist propaganda uses the loss of human lives to persuade people.
From my perspective Jihadist propaganda is composed of murderers beheading captives, hanging bodies from lampposts and publishing their acts on the internet. They publish the murderers pre-death announcements proclaiming Allah to be great to recruit more fanatics willing to act for their cause.
How does any of this suggest that they do not hold life cheap? They kill their own people and anyone that disagrees with their fascist dogma to further their cause or to persuade others to kill themselves. They have no concern for the loss of lives and some have no concern even for their own.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 3:19 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 6:53 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 396 of 508 (773572)
12-04-2015 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Modulous
12-04-2015 6:53 AM


Modulous writes:
What you did was list a series of things which confirm your hypothesis.
Correct
Unfortunately you neglected to tackle the evidence with challenges your hypothesis.
How is my evidence challenged? The fanatics are merely doing what fanatics do - blame the other side. There are many things we should be heartedly ashamed of, we've made some catastrophic mistakes - some of them not even mistakes.
But ISIS are doing this to their own people. When these lunatics take over a city they kill everyone that disagrees with their methods and dogma and impose a fascistic regime of repression of their fellow Muslims. They have no care at all who and how they kill - they do not care for even the lives of their own people let alone us.
Propaganda is evidence of lies and distortion - it's a very tortuous argument you are trying to make.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 6:53 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 8:27 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 400 of 508 (773578)
12-04-2015 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by Modulous
12-04-2015 8:27 AM


Modulous writes:
Those emotions exist because they do not regard life as cheap.
'Those emotions' exist in the people they wish to influence - ordinary Muslims. They do not exist in the people that are promoting the propoganda and murdering their fellow Muslims.
If you're just trying to make the point that ordinary Muslims have feling just like everybody else, we agreed on that about ten thousands words ago and many times since.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 8:27 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 420 of 508 (773603)
12-04-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Modulous
12-04-2015 9:13 AM


Modulous writes:
Do you suppose that once they are persuaded by the jihadists, they lose their emotions?
To be persuaded enough to voluntarily behead someone then hang his body off a lamppost in the city square. Yes.
Get them young enough and they will be indoctrinated into this death cult quite easily. You may have heard on the news today:
The Islamic State group on Thursday posted online a gruesome video showing six of its child soldiers killing Syrian security forces held captive by the jihadists.
Titled "To the Sons of Jews," the slickly-produced video shows dozens of boys, who appeared to be about 10 years old, studying religious texts and learning hand-to-hand combat.
Six of the boys are chosen by their instructor to "send a message" to IS's opponents by executing security forces held by the group.
IS's "Cubs of the Caliphate" programme provides intense military and religious training to children throughout the jihadist group's areas of control in Syria.
Although child soldiers have been typically used to man checkpoints or gather intelligence, IS has been increasingly using them to execute prisoners.
In the video, each of the six selected boys is depicted individually running through a crumbling fortress, with dramatic music and grim action shots, until he finds a captive.
Footage appears of each captive giving his name, his year of birth and describing his role in the security forces or in pro-government militia.
The boys are then each shown killing the captives. Five are shot to death, and one has his throat slit.
Good propaganda?
Only the likes of psychopaths really value life cheaply, and I would imagine they rarely kill themselves for causes.
This is not from me and anyway we've done this - I thought we agreed that ISIS is not staffed solely by psychopaths......
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 9:13 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:05 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 422 of 508 (773605)
12-04-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Modulous
12-04-2015 11:05 AM


Modulous writes:
We did. I was pointing out that it was therefore ironic that you that ended up arguing that ISIS is staffed by psychopaths.
I have never argued that ISIS was staffed solely by psychopaths.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:05 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 429 of 508 (773615)
12-04-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Modulous
12-04-2015 11:16 AM


Moduluous writes:
I see.
Quite obviously you do not.
So you arguing that they don't value human life.
As you know, I am arguing the opposite
That they have lost their emotions of empathy. They are manipulative and antisocial. But you are not arguing they are psychopaths.
We had agreed that it is likely that some are psychopaths. I disagree that ISIS is staffed solely by psychopaths.
You've taken a definition pf psychopathy and are trying to apply it to anybody who behaves in the ways that ISIS are behaving. You have an erroneous idea of what psychopathy is.
Psychopaths have reduced empathic feelings for others. They are a specific group of people with a clinical condition.
You do not have to be a psychopath to brutally murder someone. It is quite possible for people to have demonised others to the extent that they are able to do despicable things to them but still be good husbands and fathers who have feeling for their friends and family. Those operating in the death camps in WW2 were mostly people like that.
You ignored the child murderers in the news today. Do you think that those six children who shot and slit the throat of bound security guards as a reward are clinically psychopathic?
Enough.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:16 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 1:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 434 of 508 (773622)
12-04-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Straggler
12-04-2015 1:47 PM


Re: holding life cheap
Straggler writes:
Personally I see no conflict between denouncing people, their actions and their philosophy and NOT dehumanising them. Why do I have to dehumanise those whom I denounce?
I agree.
I think that as soon as we de-humanise our enemies we fall into the same trap that they, in this specifc case, have fallen into and lose a large part of what I genuinely think makes us morally superior to them.
Yup.
This need to deny that those we oppose do the things they do for reasons that are all too human I find ill considered.
Well these are pretty high principles that I can't/don't disagree with. But then I'm sat on my couch drinking a glass of wine and watching a movie with my wife. I can afford these ideals - but we're not dealing with people with our values, sadly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2015 1:47 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 435 of 508 (773623)
12-04-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by Modulous
12-04-2015 1:51 PM


Re: 6,666 posts
Terrific.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 1:51 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 445 of 508 (773645)
12-05-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by dwise1
12-05-2015 4:33 AM


Re: Perhaps Some Long-Term Perspective
dw1 writes:
I'm seeing basically two camps forming here:
1. Islamists are repeatedly demonstrating what murderous monsters they are.
2. Islamists are a people being misrepresented by extremists and with whom we must be able to deal in the future.
Personally I think arguments here have been caricatured on all sides.
One recent analysis that I read and then lost, characterised ISIS fighters into three coarse groups
1. Psychopaths, sociopaths and the otherwise mentally ill and just plain angry and disturbed people.
2. Devout religious extremists fighting holy Jihad as requiered by their books.
3. Tribal pragmatists using the other 2 groups to gain control of territory.
The view was that group three would ultimately sell out (literally) the other two groups and gain control.
Amongst all that there is the Sunni vs Shia civil wars, Arabs vs Persian problem, Islam vs other religions and Islam vs the West.
Attempting to reduce this mess into simple blacks and whites is absurd, and I doubt anyone here has a real understanding of any of it. So it all collapses into stupid bickering over trivia and/or stereotyping into perceived extreme positions.
I was hoping for something better.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by dwise1, posted 12-05-2015 4:33 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 12-05-2015 3:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 451 of 508 (773680)
12-07-2015 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by vimesey
12-07-2015 6:41 AM


"You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
It was very good to hear.
If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.
Sadly, I suspect it'll have as much effect as the 'no true Scotsman' argument has on Faith.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by vimesey, posted 12-07-2015 6:41 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2015 11:30 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-07-2015 11:46 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 462 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 11:09 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 454 of 508 (773686)
12-07-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by ringo
12-07-2015 11:46 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
ringo writes:
I think it's more important that non-Muslims take it on board.
I suspect if it happens at all, it will only be if there's persistent and strenuous condemnation by the Muslim communities first.
Even so, I think NoNukes is correct.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-07-2015 11:46 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 464 of 508 (773733)
12-08-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Jon
12-08-2015 11:09 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Jon writes:
You can't fix a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.
A Muslim telling another that his beliefs are false is not ignoring it - It's a powerful start. It's probably the only way it can change, from within. Christians telling Muslims they're wrong is unlikely to have much of an effect.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 11:09 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 1:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 469 of 508 (773748)
12-08-2015 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Jon
12-08-2015 1:41 PM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Jon writes:
It's lying, plain and simple.
It's not powerful; it's cowardly and pathetic.
Explain yourself sir.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 1:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 7:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 472 of 508 (773783)
12-09-2015 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by Jon
12-08-2015 7:10 PM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Jon writes:
If folks like Mr. "You ain't no Muslim" want to really prove they are moderate, liberal, and enlightened, they need to throw off Islam; denounce that bastard prophet of theirs as the wicked and despicable piece of shit that he really was.
Hence the lie and him being a pathetic coward.
Well that's pretty damned ignorant and idiotic. This thread seems to bring out the worst in people.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 7:10 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 12-09-2015 3:58 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 475 by Jon, posted 12-09-2015 5:24 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 501 of 508 (817780)
08-20-2017 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Faith
08-20-2017 8:26 AM


Re: "Europe is Lost" says Barcelona's Chief Rabbi
Faith writes:
Fourteen people died and as many as 130 were injured when a white van plowed into a popular Barcelona tourist area Thursday evening.
This was a terrorist attack on the whole of Western society - Jews weren't targeted. If religions didn't believe themselves to be so unique, special and chosen, we wouldn't have these sorts of problem.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Faith, posted 08-20-2017 8:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 08-20-2017 10:09 AM Tangle has replied

  
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