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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 350 of 511 (772640)
11-17-2015 8:50 AM


Moderator Warning
Usually there is no one person to blame when a thread spirals out of control. One moderator responsibility is to nip such spiraling in the bud. I'll just cite a couple anonymous quotes and ask that it stop:
It looks as if you've stopped pretending to be polite.
You ignore the consequence question showing how dishonest a poster you are.
I'll issue short suspensions if this isn't cleaned up in future posts.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Admin
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Posts: 12998
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Message 354 of 511 (772657)
11-17-2015 1:10 PM


Moderator Request for Clarity
There's no problem with having some fun, but if there's a serious point about the nature of tables then it should be made clearly, or if it's an attempt at humor then that should be made clear.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
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Message 368 of 511 (772743)
11-18-2015 11:39 AM


Can anything other than people be morally good or evil?
So that this thread won't spend further time on this side issue I am ruling that the definition of good and evil in play in this thread is the one that concerns morality. Because only people can have morals, anything that isn't a person cannot be morally good or evil. In this thread.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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(1)
Message 382 of 511 (772886)
11-20-2015 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by ICANT
11-20-2015 3:19 AM


Moderator Provided Information
ICANT writes:
Dark matter is the name given to a unknown, unobserved, thus non existent substance that has been proposed to explain the existence of an observed phenomenon. The calculations regarding the universe just don't add up without something(that is called dark matter). Thus a little something is required to prop up the standard theory again.
You said "dark matter," but this looks to be about dark energy. Dark energy is the name given to whatever is causing the accelerating expansion of the universe. Dark matter is the name given to whatever is causing spinning galaxies to hold together.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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 Message 379 by ICANT, posted 11-20-2015 3:19 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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(2)
Message 389 of 511 (772991)
11-22-2015 9:03 AM


Moderator Request
Concerning recent posts, stop the carping.
The evidence for the truth of the Gospels is worth serious discussion. Raphael mentioned Father Papias and the Gospel of Mark, and the Wikipedia article on Papias of Hierapolis has information that might form a practical starting point.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
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Message 435 of 511 (773300)
11-28-2015 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by ICANT
11-27-2015 12:24 PM


ICANT writes:
Seriously, I did understand Pressie to say I was addressing him.
Your response to my post as Percy (which I meant to post as Admin) did not address anything about Pressie at all. If what you said had anything to do with the topic then, since I won't be responding to it, you might want to try to work it into the discussion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by ICANT, posted 11-27-2015 12:24 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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Message 446 of 511 (773339)
11-30-2015 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by ICANT
11-29-2015 4:33 PM


Hi ICANT,
I want to make sure you're pursuing a line of argument that has a chance of success. It seems as if you're arguing that if we don't know what something is, say gravity, or we don't know something's origins, say the universe, then that's evidence for the supernatural.
There have always been things we do not know. Cavemen could have argued, "We don't know what lightning is, therefore it is evidence of the supernatural." Our knowledge has always been and will always be imperfect and incomplete. That fact is not, in and of itself, evidence of the supernatural.
If this is at least somewhat the approach you're taking, could you make clear how you believe it will lead to evidence of the supernatural?
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by ICANT, posted 11-29-2015 4:33 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by ICANT, posted 11-30-2015 11:24 AM Admin has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 459 of 511 (773381)
11-30-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by ICANT
11-30-2015 11:24 AM


ICANT writes:
Talking about gravity is basically for educational purposes.
I don't know what this means.
If you're trying to argue that things we don't know are evidence of the supernatural, please explain why you believe this is a fruitful line of argument.
If "what gravity really is" and "what came before the universe" are topics not germane to this thread, please drop them.
If it's something else, please explain.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by ICANT, posted 11-30-2015 11:24 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
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Posts: 12998
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Message 464 of 511 (773791)
12-09-2015 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by ICANT
12-09-2015 5:51 AM


Moderator Provided Information
Hi ICANT,
I'm just going to provide some simple feedback and corrections.
ICANT writes:
Well science says gravity is what causes the curvature of spacetime.
This is incorrect. Science believes that mass curves space-time. The greater and denser the mass, the greater the resulting curve in space-time.
Then turns around and says that the curvature of spacetime causes gravity.
This is correct.
You continue on to quote short excerpts about gravity from three links NoNukes provided, claiming they disagree:
Your excerpt from the first link is about Newtonian gravity, which of course differs from Einsteinian gravity.
Your excerpt from the second link stops short of the very next sentence. Here it is all together, the part you quoted plus the following sentence:
quote:
Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity is one of the towering achievements of 20th-century physics. Published in 1916, it explains that what we perceive as the force of gravity in fact arises from the curvature of space and time.
Einstein proposed that objects such as the sun and the Earth change this geometry.
Which is exactly what your excerpt from the third link says. There's no disagreement at all:
quote:
As we have seen, matter does not simply pull on other matter across empty space, as Newton had imagined. Rather matter distorts space-time and it is this distorted space-time that in turn affects other matter.
You told me earlier that "Talking about gravity is basically for educational purposes." I responded in Message 459:
Admin in Message 459 writes:
I don't know what this means.
If you're trying to argue that things we don't know are evidence of the supernatural, please explain why you believe this is a fruitful line of argument.
If "what gravity really is" and "what came before the universe" are topics not germane to this thread, please drop them.
If it's something else, please explain.
You didn't respond, and now you're discussing (or working hard to misunderstand) gravity again. Please explain how it ties into the topic, or drop it. Ignoring me again will draw a suspension.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ICANT, posted 12-09-2015 5:51 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2015 12:05 PM Admin has replied

  
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Message 470 of 511 (773889)
12-10-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by ICANT
12-10-2015 12:05 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Hi ICANT,
Do you believe gravity or the origin of the universe are key to making your case for the supernatural? If not, please drop these topics, it isn't worth the time it is obviously going to take for you and everyone else to reach some common ground of understanding.
But if these topics are important to making your case then please continue, but first please explain how, because I don't yet see any connection.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2015 12:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2015 12:53 PM Admin has replied
 Message 473 by Modulous, posted 12-10-2015 1:03 PM Admin has replied

  
Admin
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Posts: 12998
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Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 475 of 511 (773899)
12-10-2015 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by ICANT
12-10-2015 12:53 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
ICANT writes:
The workings of the universe such as gravity has everything to do with either a supernatural power or a natural power. Either gravity is an accident, or natural occurrence if you prefer, or it is a planned event by a supernatural power.
I'm going to have to ask you to make progress on your view that gravity has a supernatural origin or drop it. Your current approach of arguing that science is wrong does not appear to be an argument for the supernatural. If you think it is then please explain.
I presented what I would be arguing in Message 46 concerning the origin of the universe that I believe requires a Supernatural Power for the universe to have a beginning to exist.
Message 46 is a statement of belief. You've been arguing that the scientific explanations for the origin of the universe are wrong in some way. Are you arguing that if science is wrong therefore the supernatural exists? If so then please explain the logic. If your position is something else then please explain.
My main concern is keeping the thread on topic about whether there's a supernatural. Given that the history of science is full of mistakes it seems to me that whether science is at the moment right or wrong about gravity or cosmology is beside the point when it comes to the supernatural, but I would be happy to entertain arguments that that's not true.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2015 12:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2015 1:53 PM Admin has replied

  
Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 479 of 511 (773904)
12-10-2015 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by ICANT
12-10-2015 1:53 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
ICANT writes:
I am arguing that if the present scientific view as presented at EvC is correct then there can be no supernatural anything.
I don't think anyone here in this thread is arguing that science rules out the supernatural. If that is your argument then I think most here would disagree with you, but you're more than welcome to make that argument. If you or anyone has been pursuing that line of argument then I somehow missed it.
So for any argumentation for a Supernatural Power to exist stands in direct opposition to the EvC scientific view.
I don't think there's just one EvC scientific view on anything, let alone the topics in this thread. If there's someone in this thread you're arguing against then please direct your arguments to them.
This conversation is just going on and on with no sign of resolution, each response from you changes the subject, so I'm going to bring this to a close now. I will be enforcing the Forum Guidelines, which include staying on topic and moving discussion constructively forward.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2015 1:53 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Admin
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Posts: 12998
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(1)
Message 481 of 511 (773907)
12-10-2015 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Modulous
12-10-2015 1:03 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Hi Modulous,
I think arguments along those lines are fine.
I'm more concerned about ICANT's occupation with how science is wrong, which isn't the topic. This isn't even a science forum. I don't have a problem with side-topics, but I don't think they should be unending or threaten to drown out the topic. For example, I don't think any progress is being made concerning your point that the universe has existed for all time but that time has a finite past. You said it clearly, but ICANT responded with a Hawking quote saying the same thing but as if he understood Hawking to have contradicted you. Seems pretty hopeless. You're welcome to keep trying, but I'm not sure your efforts at explanation are being matched by any efforts at understanding, perhaps even the opposite, and I'd prefer that unprofitable side-topics not go on too long.
AbE: Liked Message 480.
Edited by Admin, : AbE.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Modulous, posted 12-10-2015 1:03 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
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Message 487 of 511 (774196)
12-14-2015 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by ICANT
12-14-2015 10:59 AM


Moderator Provided Information
ICANT writes:
NoNukes writes:
As was pointed out, I should have written remain constant or increase.
How can the energy remain constant? Entropy is a fact.
What would be the mechanism to increase the energy in the universe?
I added a note in bold red explaining this at the top of NoNuke's Message 482. When he said he "should have written remain constant or increase" he was referring to when he mistakenly said "entropy must remain constant." In other words, what he meant to say was more like, "For all known processes total entropy must remain constant or increase." This is actually only true for closed systems (which anyone familiar with thermodynamics would have understood NoNukes to be assuming), as I said in my note. The universe considered as a whole is presumably a closed system.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2015 10:59 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 497 of 511 (774745)
12-21-2015 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Dr Adequate
12-21-2015 2:55 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
If you will show your working, I will point out where the error is.
I think ICANT (and me, too) might be helped by something specific about the problems you see in his last sentence.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2015 2:55 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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