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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
dronestar
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Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 425 of 508 (773608)
12-04-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by 1.61803
12-04-2015 11:19 AM



This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 455 of 508 (773692)
12-07-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Dogmafood
12-04-2015 8:11 PM


ProtoTypical writes:
Bombs are a repugnantly blunt instrument but not the same as shooting a female doctor who refuses to wear a niqab.
Do you think this makes a difference to the dead doctor? Or does this reasoning just allow you to sleep at night?
And what about the men who deliver the bombs? The suicide rates of the military are sky high. Is it because the cruelty the West does to the middle east is EQUAL to the cruelty they do to us?
I can't see any difference between the actions of the Paris attackers and the continuing use of drone weapons . . .
quote:
Former Drone Operators Say They Were Horrified By Cruelty of Assassination Program
"We have seen the abuse firsthand, said Bryant, and we are horrified.
Zcomm » Former Drone Operators Say They Were Horrified By Cruelty of Assassination Program
Widespread racism and criminal apathy allows the west to commit atrocities on the people of the middle east. It also prevents us from examining our own actions too closely.
Until we evolve from barbarians, it is simply not possible for the West to help bring about peace.
I had thought the attacks on america on 9/11 would have caused the West to morally ponder the actions the West had perpetrated on others. Through decades of constant support of dictators, terrorists, and destabilizing democratic nations the West should have realized that those actions only spread world-wide conflicts.
But I was wrong. There has been no epiphany. No moral evolution.
Just more shouts for more "repugnantly blunt" bombs.

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 456 of 508 (773693)
12-07-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Percy
12-04-2015 6:09 PM


Re: bump
From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from?
Be specific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Percy, posted 12-04-2015 6:09 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by xongsmith, posted 12-08-2015 1:21 AM dronestar has replied
 Message 458 by Percy, posted 12-08-2015 7:51 AM dronestar has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 466 of 508 (773740)
12-08-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by 1.61803
12-08-2015 11:05 AM


Re: bump
1.61803 writes:
Yes and that because of past moral transgressions of a state or country or group they should not automatically be forfeit any consideration or credibility.
Some states (most?, all?) don't allow convicted sociopathic axe murderers to vote or serve on jury duties. Do you think that is also a mistake? Should sociopaths be allowed to influence your society/culture? Should convicted child rapists be allowed to teach in school?
Did you think through your above stance at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by 1.61803, posted 12-08-2015 11:05 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 10:19 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 467 of 508 (773741)
12-08-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by xongsmith
12-08-2015 1:21 AM


Re: bump
drone writes:
From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from?
xongsmith writes:
Perhaps yours, yourself.
My catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies? . . . My?
Sorry Xong, from the context of my original argument, I am not understanding your reply.
(maybe today was the wrong day for me to stop sniffing glue.)
Edited by dronestar, : clarity, added quote

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 485 of 508 (773816)
12-09-2015 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by 1.61803
12-09-2015 10:19 AM


The West has no credibility.
1.61803 writes:
I get the feeling you think the U.S. and it's allies are deserved of ISILS brutality and are reaping what they sowed.
Innocent civilians never deserve to be murdered.
_______________________________________________________
1.61803 writes:
A nations past sins do not mean the country forfeits the possibility of redemption.
NN writes:
Quite frankly, I think being the only nation to ever use nuclear weapons does cost the US quite a bit of credibility when speaking out on nuclear disarmament.
I agree NN. That would be called hypocrisy.
RingO writes:
I don't ask Charles Manson for his opinions on murder.
I agree RingO. There's a good reason why he wouldn't be allowed on a jury.
quote:
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
American Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price—we think the price is worth it.
Yeah, you read that correct, the West strongly believes that murdering a half MILLION Iraqi CHILDREN is a WORTHWHILE activity. Gee, I forgot, in contrast, how many Parisians were killed by terrorists last month? 1.61803, can you do the math on this? What is the murder ratio of innocent civilians of the West and ISIL?
But in this case, we don't need to only consider the atrocities of the past. Not only is the West guilty of horrific atrocities of the PAST, they are also guilty of horrific atrocities of the PRESENT.
quote:
Was the U.S. attack on the Kunduz hospital a war crime?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...unduz-hospital-a-war-crime
So, just what kind of ethical credibility does a nation that murders doctors in hospitals, or children via repeating drone strikes have?
Be specific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 10:19 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 11:20 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 495 of 508 (773914)
12-10-2015 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by 1.61803
12-10-2015 11:20 AM


Re: The West has no credibility.
1.61803 writes:
Madeline Albright said something stupid.
And incredibly psychopathic. And jaw-droppingly incriminating. For which she was not fired or even disciplined by the Clinton Administration. Me'h, go figure.
1.61803 writes:
The Iraq sanctions was a result of trying to get Saddam out of power.
Yeah, targeting innocent civilians to bring about a political result is usually called "terrorism." But only when "they" do it to "us," right?
1.61803 writes:
The US and the West does not think [the murder of 500,000 children] was [worth it].
Uhhh, yes, Madeline Albright, Secretary of the State during the Clinton Administration, after careful thought, said yes, the Iraqi sanctions was worth murdering 500,000 children.
1.61803 writes:
I do not believe that can ever be reconciled but it is not the intentions of the West to kill innocent people.
So after 10 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.
So after 100 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.
So after 1000 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.
So after 10,000 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.
So after 100,000 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.
The following hypothetical news broadcast sounds like your defense:
quote:
. . . Police apprehended the alleged man who stabbed the child 500,000 times in the chest. Said the man, "I just wanted to bring about change in the child's behavior. Although I admit that I did stab the child 500,000 times in the chest, it was not my intention to murder the child. I am not a monster like "true-scottsman" murderers. It was just a non-intentional 500,000 stabbings into the chest. Come to think about it, I think the child was already dead before I even arrived"
Drone writes:
So, just what kind of ethical credibility does a nation that murders doctors in hospitals,
1.61803 writes:
It was a mistake. Poor intelligence, a break down in communications who knows?
but it was not on purpose.
Research/interviews have clearly shown it was not poor intelligence, nor a break down in communications. The West DID willfully bomb the hospital . . .
quote:
The Kunduz Hospital Bombing
After the first strike, MSF contacted US officials and reported the hospital was being bombed and begged them to halt the attack. Nevertheless, the US AC-130 gunship continued to pummel the hospital repeatedly for more than one hour.
Since the Pentagon has access to video and audio recordings taken from the gunship, they must know what actually occurred. Daily Beast reported that the recordings contain conversations among the crew as they were firing on the hospital, including communications between the crew and US soldiers on the ground. Moreover, AC-130 gunships fly low to the ground so the crew can assess what they are hitting.
But members of Congress who oversee the Pentagon have been denied access to the classified recordings.
Zcomm » The Kunduz Hospital Bombing
Hospital bombing in Afghanistan was premeditated . . .
quote:
Hospital bombing in Afghanistan was premeditated, AP reports
New media revelations have confirmed that the US airstrikes against a Doctors Without Borders/Mdecins Sans Frontires (MSF) medical center in Kunduz, Afghanistan were premeditated and deliberate
American special operations analysts in Afghanistan had been gathering intelligence on the hospital days before it was destroyed on October 3. The official asserts that the analysts had assembled a dossier that included maps with the hospital circled,
However, MSF has repeatedly asserted that no gunmen, weapons or ammunition were housed in their facility. Further, none of the victims killed by the air strikes have been publicly identified as Pakistani, and MSF says that none of its staff at the hospital were Pakistani.
NBC News also reported Thursday that cockpit recordings reveal that the crew actually questioned whether the air strike was legal amid the five separate strafing runs during the attack.
The Department of Defense cited its ongoing internal investigation as their reason not to share the recordings, a further indication that the military operates as a law unto itself. The recordings could contain incriminating dialogue in which higher-ups order their questioning pilots to carry through a premeditated war crime.
In official statements regarding the hospital bombing, US military commanders have changed their story repeatedly.
The latest revelations expose all the previous claims by Obama administration and military officials as lies.
Zcomm » Hospital bombing in Afghanistan was premeditated, AP reports
Now then, let's get back to the math, . . . what is the murder-ratio of children of the West to ISIL? I prefer to do the math before we add the West's other instances of intentional child murders. Goodness, the numbers will become so big we'll need NASA's super computers to calculate . . .
quote:
Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre
. . . indiscriminate use of violence against civilians and children by military forces of the United States of America
Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 11:20 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 4:19 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 496 of 508 (773915)
12-10-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by caffeine
12-09-2015 4:18 PM


Re: States and People
caffeine writes:
Most who did vote for that government share no responsibility either,
*blinks*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by caffeine, posted 12-09-2015 4:18 PM caffeine has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 498 of 508 (773918)
12-10-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by 1.61803
12-10-2015 4:19 PM


Re: The West has no credibility.
1.61803 writes:
I simply do not agree
1.61803 writes:
You are a convincing debater
*blink*
It would appear that I am only a convincing debater with those who do not prefer delusion over reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 4:19 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 499 of 508 (774176)
12-14-2015 9:09 AM


Hooray for the military industrial complex . . .

  
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