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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 471 of 511 (773890)
12-10-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Admin
12-10-2015 12:14 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Hi Admin,
Admin writes:
Do you believe gravity or the origin of the universe are key to making your case for the supernatural?
The origin of the universe has everything to do with any argument for the Supernatural Power I call God. Either the origin of the universe is supernatural or a natural accident, or occurrence if you prefer.
The workings of the universe such as gravity has everything to do with either a supernatural power or a natural power. Either gravity is an accident, or natural occurrence if you prefer, or it is a planned event by a supernatural power.
Everything is controlled by a supernatural power or a natural power and that is what we have been discussing in this thread.
This is the original question I have been trying to answer that GIA asked.
quote:
Do you think Gods are manmade or do you believe in a supernatural God? Message 1
Why do you think that way?
I believe in a supernatural power which I call God.
I believe the origin of the universe is the best argument for a supernatural power. That is the reason I have presented the things I have in this thread.
I presented what I would be arguing in Message 46 concerning the origin of the universe that I believe requires a Supernatural Power for the universe to have a beginning to exist.
If the universe had no beginning to exist which is the standard theory I am wasting our time. At present there is no other theory. There are a couple of hypothesis that have been put forth which have more problems than the standard theory. Even though they are proposed in order to do away with the problems of the standard theory.
If the universe has eternally existed then I need to change my argumentation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Admin, posted 12-10-2015 12:14 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by Admin, posted 12-10-2015 1:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 476 of 511 (773900)
12-10-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by NoNukes
12-09-2015 12:29 PM


Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Your argument does not tell us how energy could ever be lost regardless of how long the universe existed. If energy cannot be destroyed, it cannot be used up simply by the passage of time.
As energy is changed from one form to another entropy takes place and some of the energy becomes unavailable to do work..
Over enough duration of existence entropy would cause all the energy in the universe to become unavailable to do work. and the universe would die a cold death.
NoNukes writes:
Sure, now what is the total amount of energy in the universe including all of the mass, kinetic and gravitational potential energy? What if I told you that the total amount of energy is something close to zero?
I would say you had been reading Alan Guth or listening to someone who had.
Has his hypothesis reached a consensus yet? Better yet is there any evidence for such a hypothesis?
NoNukes writes:
Why don't you prove that statement to be true? Perhaps it is not.
Why don't you prove it to be false?
There have been millions of dollars spent trying to produce life from non life and no one has to date produced life from non life.
Producing existence from non existence is a whole different ball game. Those who have been trying to produce life from non life have been using chemicals to produce life. Take away their chemicals, their tools and their lab even themselves the universe and everything else and produce existence from non existence.
The following is a Ancient Greek argument.
quote:
1. What is is, and what is not is not.
2. What is not doesn’t exist. If it did, it would exist.
3. What is cannot come from, or go to, what is not.
4. Accordingly, what is must have always been what is.
Existence from non existence reminds me of a story about God and a scientist walking along talking about making mankind. God said to the scientist I made mankind out of dirt. The scientist said, no problem I can do the same and reached down and got a hand full of dirt. God said wait a minute you can't take my dirt and make your man. You have to provide your own dirt. That would be existence from non existence.
NoNukes writes:
I don't believe the universe existed eternally in the past, but you have not managed to show any such thing.
The universe is not a cold dead entity which is proof enough that the universe has not always existed. If you disagree with entropy please explain why?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 12:29 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2015 7:31 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 477 of 511 (773902)
12-10-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Admin
12-10-2015 1:32 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Hi Admin,
Admin writes:
Are you arguing that if science is wrong therefore the supernatural exists? If so then please explain the logic. If your position is something else then please explain.
I am arguing that if the present scientific view as presented at EvC is correct then there can be no supernatural anything.
So for any argumentation for a Supernatural Power to exist stands in direct opposition to the EvC scientific view.
Both can not be correct.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Admin, posted 12-10-2015 1:32 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Admin, posted 12-10-2015 2:26 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 485 of 511 (774184)
12-14-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by NoNukes
12-10-2015 7:31 PM


Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
Simply changing form does not require that energy become unavailable.
Why not?
Example: I go camping and I gather some wood which is a form of energy. I build a fire with that wood. The fire keeps me warm as it is a cold evening. I then place cooking pans on the fire to cook food.
I cook food with the energy that is produced by the burning of the wood. I eat the food which produces energy for my body to use. When I put the fire out or let it burn out the wood and all the energy that was in it has been changed into different forms with the balance of the wood a pile of ashes which is what is left over from the wood. There is no usable energy in those ashes that I know of. Entropy has taken place and a lot of energy has changed into forms that are not usable energy. Like the heat that went into the air as well as the ashes on the ground.
NoNukes writes:
There is a huge thread on this subject in the archives including calculations based on observation that indicate that the total energy in the universe is zero.
You did not answer the question, "Has his hypothesis reached a consensus yet?"
The answer is no.
OK you believe in a zero energy universe.
Since energy can not be created and you have admitted that entropy does take place, how does a minus zero energy universe exist?
Just one of my stupid questions.
The universe will run out of useable energy in the future unless energy can be added to it by some means.
NoNukes writes:
As was pointed out, I should have written remain constant or increase.
How can the energy remain constant? Entropy is a fact.
What would be the mechanism to increase the energy in the universe?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2015 7:31 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by Phat, posted 12-14-2015 12:04 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 487 by Admin, posted 12-14-2015 12:05 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 490 by kbertsche, posted 12-14-2015 12:28 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 488 of 511 (774197)
12-14-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Modulous
12-10-2015 2:40 PM


Hi Mod,
Mod writes:
I have an alternative wording that may or may not help. The model I am describing Spacetime is synonymous with existence.
Existence is the opposite of non existence.
Example: Before your parents were born you did not exist. Yet today you exist.
Spacetime may or may not exist. It just depends on which scientist you want to believe. There are many who do not believe spacetime exists. They believe that space does exist. They also believe that events can be order by the concept of time.
The universe does exist now but many say it has not always existed.
You on the other hand want to believe the universe has existed for all time which had a beginning to exist when the universe had a beginning to exist.
Mod writes:
Speculating about things that are outside of existence is literally speculating on the non-existent.
No speculating involve at all. Either there is existence or there is non existence as there is no in between.
Mod writes:
Existence didn't come from some place or time. You can't talk of some place of infinite energy or power outside of existence that must be in order to create existence.
I totally agree that there can be nothing outside of existence. That is the reason I believe that there is a supernatural power that supplied all the energy and mass that makes up our present universe.
You on the other hand believe that infinite energy did exist outside of existence. Otherwise where did the infinite energy that is supposed to have began to expand into our universe come from. There is only one place and that is non existence which is impossible.
Mod writes:
Existence has a finite past.
The existence of the universe has a finite past. That does not mean that existence has a finite past. In fact the existence of the universe requires that existence is infinite.
The standard theory as well as string theory, and brane theory require something to exist in order for them to take place.
Mod writes:
Existence has never not existed.
I agree, existence is infinite.
Mod writes:
The energy exists..
I agree, energy is infinite.
Mod writes:
Energy exists throughout space and time in varying concentrations.
I agree. I also believe entropy will consume all usable energy in the universe.
Mod writes:
The statement 'the universe did not exist' makes as much sense as 'existence did not exist'.
Einstein believed that the universe was infinite, until it was proven that the universe was expanding. He did not want to accept the fact the universe had a beginning to exist. So he pulled his biggest blunder, which later he admitted.
So I will let you argue with Einstein and others as to whether the universe had a beginning to exist or not. Because according to them and the standard theory the universe did have a beginning to exist.
Mod writes:
The same shields and foils you use can be deployed against your own model showing that the 'supernatural' hypothesis has no merits above the 'natural' one.
I don't really have a model.
In my very first post in answer to GIA's question, "Do you think Gods are manmade or do you believe in a supernatural God?" I said the following:
quote:
I believe in a supernatural God.
Everybody says why?
Scientific fact: The universe has not always existed.
Scientific fact: The universe had a beginning to exist.
Scientific fact: The universe exists.
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy, or vacuum, as all those began to exist when the universe began to exist.
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
I call that supernatural power God, what do you call it?
According to you the universe is finite. Which requires a beginning to exist as it is not eternal in existence.
That would require a Supernatural Power to exist to provide the energy and mass for the universe to be composed of.
Since the word Supernatural is used that means it would not be an entity that is controlled by natural means in the universe as it would be outside the universe and not subject to any restraints finite man might want to impose upon it.
You can use your, the universe has existed as long as time has existed which has existed as long as the universe has existed because it is a part of the universe, and did not exist prior to the universe which did not exist prior to time existing all you want to.
As Admin has said you will get no where making that argument with me.
The reason you will get no where is:
The claim is that time is a dimension of the universe when time is not physical and can not be measured.
Being a dimension of the universe time could not exist until after the universe existed. Therefore the universe has existed longer than time has existed.
I got to stop my head is spinning going around in this circle.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Modulous, posted 12-10-2015 2:40 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Modulous, posted 12-21-2015 2:48 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 489 of 511 (774200)
12-14-2015 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Phat
12-14-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Matter and Energy and an initial Source
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I thought I'd jump in to this conversation as it is becoming rather philosophically, if not scientifically intriguing,.
It does make the mind work don't it?
Phat writes:
as a Creator would initially create, causing either matter or energy to appear out of nothing.
Why would you assume that a Creator would initially have to create energy?
The Supernatural Power I speak about is infinite. Which means it has no bounds, or constraints.
So why wouldn't the energy that the Creator used to produce the mass for the universe also be infinite?
Phat writes:
This can be philosophically acknowledged though not scientifically at this time.
I am persuaded you will not get that scientific proof until 1 femtosecond (which is one quadrillionth of a second) after death in which you meet the Creator. At that moment you will have all the answers or you will not exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Phat, posted 12-14-2015 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Phat, posted 12-14-2015 9:23 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 491 of 511 (774209)
12-14-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by kbertsche
12-14-2015 12:28 PM


Hi kbertsche,
kbertsche writes:
The universe contains dissipative processes, so the total entropy of the universe will increase over its lifetime. This means that our universe will eventually run out of useful energy and will die a "heat death".
If I understand what you are saying it is that the amount of useable energy will decrease as entropy takes it course during duration. At a point in the future all of the useable energy will be turned into un-useable energy at which time the universe will be dead.
Which is the reason that the universe requires a beginning to exist as it could not be infinite as the universe would already have reached the point of death.
kbertsche writes:
... Fixing either of these problems would not require an input of ENERGY; it
I do not understand how if energy was supplied to continue doing work that the problem would not be solved. The pile of un-useable energy would just get larger.
I guess that is the reason the Bible says that our present universe's elements will dissolve with fervent heat. 2 Peter 3:12
Then those elements (or other elements) will be taken and a new Heaven and earth will be created.
Thanks for answering my question, "How can the energy remain constant? "
Useable energy + un-useable energy = total energy of the universe.
Useable energy will always decrease and un-useable energy will allways increase. Thus the total energy will remain the same until all the useable energy in the universe becomes un-useable energy.
zero useable energy = 100% un-useable energy = dead universe
Has my understand cleared up?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by kbertsche, posted 12-14-2015 12:28 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by kbertsche, posted 12-14-2015 2:59 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 496 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2015 2:55 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 494 of 511 (774304)
12-16-2015 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by kbertsche
12-14-2015 2:59 PM


Hi kbertsche
kbertsche writes:
I suppose more energy COULD be added to the system. But if so, it would have to be added as "useable energy", I.e. energy that is in a low-entropy state. This is equivalent to saying that the net ENTROPY of the universe must be reduced, which cannot happen by any natural process.
Yes, that would require a Supernatural Power.
kbertsche writes:
Yes, but Peter seems to be describing something abrupt here. So this is not "heat death", which is a very gradual process.
And we need to be careful not to read "elements" anachronistically as "chemical elements". To Peter, "elements" meant all of the individual pieces of the present creation, no matter how small or large these pieces are.
Peter was talking about a supernatural event.
Since Peter was a simple fisherman he probably did not even know what the elements were. He was probably thinking of the Greek word meaning all the physical things in the universe.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by kbertsche, posted 12-14-2015 2:59 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 505 of 511 (774806)
12-23-2015 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Admin
12-22-2015 7:50 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, a Question, and the Topic
Hi Admin
Admin writes:
If everything has to be created by something already in existence, why isn't this also true of the supernatural being proposed as the creator of the universe?
The Supernatural power is supernatural not natural.
Therefore the Supernatural power would be an eternal entity.
That Supernatural entity would not be subject to any natural laws.
If as NoNukes says our universe was created by two branes banging together and they were supplied by an earlier universe. Those two branes would have to have been able to supply all the energy necessary to create our universe. Those branes would exist outside of our universe. I have been ridiculed and assured there is nothing outside of our universe.
But if that process had been going on eternally in the past there would be no usable energy left.
Admin writes:
How does the universe having a beginning imply the existence of a supernatural being?
It doesn't just imply it. It requires there be a supernatural power whether it be Brian Greene's branes or Hartley/Hawkings instanton that they dreamed up to remove the need for a beginning to exist of our universe. Neither of which is more than a hypothesis.
Or whether my Supernatural Power which I call God supplied all the energy necessary to form our present universe.
Both of these would have to exist outside of our universe. Which would mean they existed in something. That something would be existence as they would have had to exist. That would require space and duration.
Yet several here assure me that nothing exists outside of our universe.
In my first message Message 46 I said:
quote:
Scientific fact: The universe has not always existed.
Scientific fact: The universe had a beginning to exist.
Scientific fact: The universe exists.
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy, or vacuum, as all those began to exist when the universe began to exist.
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
I call that supernatural power God, what do you call it?
You can call that supernatural power Brian Greene's branes or Hartly/Hawking's instanton but if they existed they would have been supernatural as they are not a part of this universe.
Since they exist outside of our universe there is no way to know if they existed or not. Nothing is known past T=0 plus 1 billionth of a second.
But if they existed they would be supernatural.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Admin, posted 12-22-2015 7:50 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Admin, posted 12-23-2015 7:33 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 509 of 511 (774942)
12-25-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Admin
12-23-2015 1:56 PM


Re: Faith & Belief Based Arguments
Hi Admin,
Admin writes:
"Are you arguing from theology, or from physical evidence?"
All 5367 post I have made on EvC is from a theological viewpoint.
The subject of the OP I have been addressing is:
quote:
Do you think Gods are manmade or do you believe in a supernatural God?
I gave my reasons for that belief in my first post in this thread.
Message 46
There is no scientific physical evidence as to the beginning to exist of the universe.
Therefore any discussion of the beginning to exist of the universe is either theological or Metaphysical.
Admin writes:
If ICANT wants to make scientific arguments here then he must accept this.
I have not proposed a scientific argument. I have made metaphysical arguments and theological arguments.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Admin, posted 12-23-2015 1:56 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Admin, posted 12-25-2015 8:22 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 510 of 511 (774946)
12-25-2015 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Admin
12-23-2015 7:33 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, a Question, and the Topic
Hi Admin,
Admin writes:
No, you have not been assured that "there is nothing outside of our universe." Different models have been discussed. Modulous makes one model pretty clear in Message 495, saying that *if* you define a model where the universe is synonymous with existence, then nothing can exist outside the universe (you didn't reply). NoNukes lists four different models that have been offered in Message 503.
But rather than discuss any particular model you have instead constructed within your mind some confused combination.
I will give a few of the assurances I have been given that there is nothing outside of the universe.
Message 21
cavediver writes:
In this case, you have to realise that the Big Bang is not something that occurs *in* space. It is the entirety of space. And so your extraplolation is invalid at the first step.
Message 108
cavediver writes:
Now did you not explain to me how that the universe was self contained and that everything was inside the universe and there was no thing outside the universe?
Yes, I'm sure I did say this. And you still completely fail to understand it.
This states everything in existence, exists inside of the universe.
So why haven't I been assured there is nothing outside of the universe?
Is cavediver wrong?
There are several other places that supports there is nothing outside of our universe.
Admin writes:
Different models have been discussed.
String theory so called has been proposed. But string theory is not a theory it is only a hypothesis.
A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon.
For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it.
How can you test anything prior to the point General Relativity breaks down?
Nothing is known about that point.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Admin, posted 12-23-2015 7:33 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
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