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Author Topic:   The Christmas Wars
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 138 (774381)
12-16-2015 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
12-15-2015 1:15 PM


About half of your statement about what the Walmart greeter does is actually about you.
Well, not me personally, but about the hypothetical person I used to make the argument.
I agree that if you believe marginalizing other faiths is okay then you are going to label "Season Greetings" as PC. And you are going to do that without bothering to question the greeter.
Sure, but what if the person is simply an atheist that recognizes that Christmas is a secular Federal holiday?
Are they marginalizing every faith or are they marginalizing none of them?
And it doesn't have to be because they want to marginalize other faiths, remember that you're arguing that it matters what you believe, it could just be because that's what they're used to and that's how they like to say it, despite the fact that they're an atheist who recognizes holidays.
Does it really matter in-person what they believe? Isn't the point about whether the other person is offended or not? Isn't that the PC way? Isn't that especially the case in a commercial marketing situation?
Should whether or not I'm going to offend someone really guide my political decisions, though? Should it guide my forum-posting decisions? It's for sure if you consider them to be commercial, but we shouldn't have to sell our political or forum-posting ideas. We should be allowed to believe in what we stand for, and stand for what we believe in. Otherwise, you are, yourself, marginalizing another "faith" - scare quotes for the atheist holiday guys who'd say that that doesn't count as a faith.
Where we're at; does it end up mattering if I was an atheist that believed in a secular Federal Christmas holiday and wanted to wish that people enjoyed it, or whether I was a religious bigot who was trying to marginalize other faiths?
Can't the punishment be the same? That I am urged to stop saying some thing to people that I'm used to saying, for instance?
For the Wal*Mart employee that, because PC, had to change his season's greeting to his local friend Bob, which ending up actually offending Bob, because WoC, well... Bob's offense doesn't get to count, 'cause he ain't PC. No? From a commercial perspective, it does actually count though; that's prolly why Wal*Mart changed their policy. From a political perspective, though, I'm not so sure.
That's some bullshit. You can't do that commercially. You can't allow for political correctness to control national decisions like that. Sure it works in the big ol' diverse cities where most people are strangers, but in the small towns where everyone knows each other, it's offensive to those people's cultures to make them change something that's familiar and innocuous because enough people are manufacturing political offense to cause an impact on their personal social experience.
Isn't that what being offensive is really about; how you make other people feel? If you really are PC, then shouldn't you care about offending the people that (mistakenly) believe in the War on Christmas? Is cracking jokes and making fun of them, and offending them further, really the PC thing to do?
How much is the left side perpetuating the WoC, and is the OP an example of it?
Did Charles M. Schulz write that? Is this really another instance of 'Charlie Brown always being right'? Message 2
What about the Starbucks Red Cup thing? Message 8 - You realize that was all click-bait, right?
What do you think the distribution of people who clicked the bait looks like from Left to Right? Like, how much was pro-PC and anti-WoC people and how much was pro-WoC and anti-PC people? How far from half-and-half does the distribution fall, what kind of shape does it have?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2015 1:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2015 10:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 138 (774387)
12-16-2015 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
12-16-2015 9:05 PM


Isn't that what being offensive is really about; how you make other people feel? If you really are PC, then shouldn't you care about offending the people that (mistakenly) believe in the War on Christmas? Is cracking jokes and making fun of them, and offending them further, really the PC thing to do?
In political correctness the offence only counts if it's being felt by non-white, non-Western, non-Christian folk.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9141
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(6)
Message 63 of 138 (774416)
12-17-2015 1:49 PM


My take on the faux outrage
Why the hell would I say Merry Christmas in November or Dec 15 or any other freaking day besides Christmas Day? It is only Christmas that one day so that one day I say Merry Christmas every other day it is happy freaking holidays.
It is amazing these christians get so butt hurt because someone will not say Merry Christmas. How come jewish people are not whining about Hanukkah? Before the US became so damn commercial Christmas was a solemn day without celebration. I think it can be said and shown that most Christian in the US have a very tenuous grasp on their religion. Even the fundies have a poor concept of their religion, therefore they need constant reinforcement.
All I can say to all to the hurt "christians" is; Grow the fuck up. No one is trying to insult you or your religion. Just because you think it is special does not make it incumbent upon me to treat you or your religion with any more respect or disrespect than I would any other person or religion.
Happy Holidays!!
On Christmas day I will say Merry Christmas to my family. Then it is back to Happy Holidays until January 6.
Los Reyes

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9141
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 64 of 138 (774418)
12-17-2015 2:10 PM


Damn Christians started war on Christmas
Ahh, so it was Protestants that started the war on Christmas. Poke, poke.
quote:
But the public celebration of Christmas can be cancelled, which is what happened in England during the seventeenth-century Civil War.
Here’s the story in brief—as related by Diane Purkiss in The English Civil War: While Charles I was fighting during the 1640s for his crown (which he would lose along with his life in 1649), an increasingly radical Parliament governed England. In the words of Purkiss, that transhistorical killjoy a Parliamentary subcommittee was created in 1643 to reform the Church of England. It regarded the liturgical calendar of medieval Christianity as both a symbol of Catholicism and a distraction from the Gospel. Sunday was the only holy day worth honoring. All other festivals, including Christmas, should be cancelled.
http://www.patheos.com/...ear-christians-cancelled-christmas
I wonder what sort of penalty a hearty "Merry Christmas" would have gotten you under that regime.
Edited by Theodoric, : Forgot link

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 138 (774436)
12-17-2015 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Theodoric
12-17-2015 1:49 PM


Re: My take on the faux outrage
Why the hell would I say Merry Christmas in November or Dec 15 or any other freaking day besides Christmas Day?
For one: you might want tell someone to have a Merry Christmas beforehand if you aren't going to see them until afterwards, e.g. a coworker.
All I can say to all to the hurt "christians" is; Grow the fuck up. No one is trying to insult you or your religion. Just because you think it is special does not make it incumbent upon me to treat you or your religion with any more respect or disrespect than I would any other person or religion.
You should be telling that to the PC people who claim that wishing someone a Merry Christmas marginalizes other faiths.
How come jewish people are not whining about Hanukkah?
I dunno, but unlike Hanukkah, Christmas is a secular Federal holiday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2015 1:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4411
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 66 of 138 (774443)
12-17-2015 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2015 4:55 PM


Re: My take on the faux outrage
All I can say to all to the hurt "christians" is; Grow the fuck up. No one is trying to insult you or your religion. Just because you think it is special does not make it incumbent upon me to treat you or your religion with any more respect or disrespect than I would any other person or religion.
You should be telling that to the PC people who claim that wishing someone a Merry Christmas marginalizes other faiths.
I don't know anyone who claims that, but I've met several who quite indignantly tell me that THEY wish everyone a "Merry Christmas", kind of like they are looking for a fight.
I figure anyone who is offended when I wish them a "Happy Holidays" can go fuck themselves.
Christmas is a secular Federal holiday.
But that's it, there are no "official etiquette rules about Christmas" that say we have to wish people a Merry Christmas or cover our hearts or salute when we say it. I know a fair number of people who say "Bah Humbug" around this time of the year.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 67 of 138 (774447)
12-17-2015 8:54 PM


"Merry Christmas" seems to say "get drunk for Jesus". So I fully understand why Christians are offended. It is obvious why they would prefer "happy holy days". [/sarcasm]
(I did check an online dictionary. It seems that I am going by the British meaning of "merry" rather than the American meaning. I grew up down under, where British meanings are commonly used unless there is a distinctive oz meaning.)

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 138 (774448)
12-17-2015 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
12-16-2015 9:05 PM


Isn't the point about whether the other person is offended or not?
The point for whom? Unless you want to insist that greeters ought to be in the business of toughening up their customers' skins, the point might well be the affect on foot traffic into the store and not delivering lessons on how not to take offense.
Should it guide my forum-posting decisions?
Maybe.
If you really are PC, then shouldn't you care about offending the people that (mistakenly) believe in the War on Christmas?
It's probably not possible to avoid offending everyone. A commercially viable approach might be to either ignore a few people who are offended either way based on how loud the cash register rings or does not ring.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 138 (774451)
12-17-2015 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
12-16-2015 9:05 PM


Isn't that what being offensive is really about; how you make other people feel? If you really are PC, then shouldn't you care about offending the people that (mistakenly) believe in the War on Christmas? Is cracking jokes and making fun of them, and offending them further, really the PC thing to do?
Well, I believe in equal treatment for all, and any time the loons on Fox News start whining about how there's a war on Ramadan 'cos not enough people are saying Merry Eid, I'll laugh at that too. Is that PC enough for you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-16-2015 9:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 70 of 138 (774452)
12-17-2015 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2015 10:21 PM


No, that's retarded. Ramadan isn't a secular Federal holiday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2015 10:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 71 of 138 (774455)
12-17-2015 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2015 11:04 PM


No, that's retarded. Ramadan isn't a secular Federal holiday.
You think we can only have imaginary wars on secular federal holidays? In fact, it turns out that we suffer from no such limitation, which is why the people at Fox managed to whine about a "war on Easter" despite Easter not being a secular federal holiday. So I reiterate my offer to laugh at them some more if they invent a war on Ramadan or Diwali or the Chinese New Year.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 72 of 138 (774460)
12-18-2015 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tanypteryx
12-17-2015 6:30 PM


Re: My take on the faux outrage
"Happy Holidays seems a bit like trying to make a point to me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 73 of 138 (774461)
12-18-2015 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
12-18-2015 3:13 AM


Re: My take on the faux outrage
It's not as bad as the lunacy that was Birmingham City Council's decision a few years ago, to change all of the Christmas decorations to "Winterval" decorations ;-)
(For those who don't know the story, the Council was severely embarrassed and lambasted, and has gone back to Christmas decorations since then) :-)

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 74 of 138 (774462)
12-18-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
12-18-2015 3:13 AM


another alternative
"Happy Holidays seems a bit like trying to make a point to me.
We truly live in a post 1984 world ...
Another greeting I like is "Have a Happy Solstice Celebration"
you get some funny looks.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9141
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 75 of 138 (774467)
12-18-2015 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2015 4:55 PM


Re: My take on the faux outrage
For one: you might want tell someone to have a Merry Christmas beforehand if you aren't going to see them until afterwards, e.g. a coworker.
But that isn't what all the butt hurt christians are whining about is it? They re all hurt because the random stranger at the local Quickie Mart isn't using the phrase.
You should be telling that to the PC people who claim that wishing someone a Merry Christmas marginalizes other faiths.
Ok here your argument is just stupid. I know of no one saying that Christians should be prohibited from saying Merry Christmas in their personal relations. I do understand companies wanting to give a more inclusive holiday greeting. In no way is that decision an attack on christianity. You christians really need to experience marginalization and attacks on your religion so you can know what it really is.
I dunno, but unlike Hanukkah, Christmas is a secular Federal holiday.
WTF does that have to do with the whole saying Merry Christmas thing. I think you may have truly lost it on this if you think that strengthens your argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2015 4:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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