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Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 199 of 414 (774504)
12-18-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Phat
12-18-2015 11:36 AM


Re: Fig Newton Of Your Imagination
Phat writes:
I would tend to think that atheists not only have no belief, they would claim that everyone elses belief is a product of their imagination
They have no belief in God(s), not no belief. And yes as God(s) are not real, anyone believing in them is mistaken. I wouldn't say it's their imagination, it's what they've learnt - they didn't make them up themselves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Phat, posted 12-18-2015 11:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 204 of 414 (774527)
12-18-2015 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by deerbreh
12-18-2015 3:02 PM


deerbreh writes:
Disbelief is a belief.
Take it from someone who has had both, no it's not.
It seems necessary for believers to believe this - god knows why - it comes up over and over again and it doesn't matter what's said next, they persist in needing to believe it - presumably so they can explain it to themselves.
ABE. The nearest I can get to explaining it is being at school where all the young kids believe in Father Christmas and all the older kids don't. There's a bunch in the middle still trying to work it out; wanting to keep the belief because it's lovely and comforting but beginning to realise that it isn't true. When the belief is gone, it's not a belief in something else - like theists seem to want it to be - it's just no longer a belief in Father Christmas.
For those of you that claim that atheism is another form of belief. I ask you what a non-belief in Father Christmas is then a belief in. You've been there, what is it?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by deerbreh, posted 12-18-2015 3:02 PM deerbreh has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 209 of 414 (774601)
12-19-2015 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by ringo
12-19-2015 12:23 PM


ringo writes:
I personally don't believe that any gods exist but I don't self-identify as an atheist.
Doesn't matter, if you don't believe gods exist you're an atheist. Else the word means nothing.
I self-identify as an agnostic.
Irrelevant.
I have no active unbelief.
Nobody has. In fact it's a meaningless statement. Do you have an active disbelief in Father Christmas?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ringo, posted 12-19-2015 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 12-20-2015 1:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 211 of 414 (774607)
12-19-2015 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by AZPaul3
12-19-2015 2:43 PM


AZPaul writes:
That does not preclude you from also being agnostic, from the Greek agnost or agnotos - not knowing or incapable of being known.
We've done this to death in another thread so I'll just say this: agnostic is an anachronism that has had no sensible meaning since the enlightenment. We now accept that no-one actually knows whether there's a god or not. RAZD calls himself a deist and an agnostic, ringo says there's no god but isn't an atheist he's agnostic. I say I'm an atheist but I know that the non-existence of god can't be proven so I too am an agnostic.
Agnosticism is defunct as a concept. Ringo and I are atheists and RAZD believes in god/s
I'll say no more. Probably.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2015 2:43 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Diomedes, posted 12-19-2015 4:32 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 360 by GDR, posted 01-25-2018 6:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 213 of 414 (774610)
12-19-2015 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Diomedes
12-19-2015 4:32 PM


Except that Faith is also agnostic, she believes that god exists, she even thinks that she knows: but she can't know, she can only believe.
If agnostic is on both sides of the equation, we can cancel it out - we don't need the concept - if both atheists and deists can claim to be one it's only use is to conflate and confuse.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Diomedes, posted 12-19-2015 4:32 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by NoNukes, posted 12-19-2015 9:49 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 223 of 414 (774641)
12-20-2015 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by PaulK
12-20-2015 4:00 AM


Paul writes:
Therefore it seems perfectly possible to not believe that God exists without believing that God does not exist.
You see the mess this kind of word acrobatics get you into? If you don't believe in god, youre a friggin' atheist! End.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by PaulK, posted 12-20-2015 4:00 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 12-20-2015 4:31 AM Tangle has seen this message but not replied
 Message 226 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-20-2015 5:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 227 of 414 (774649)
12-20-2015 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Hyroglyphx
12-20-2015 5:29 AM


Hydroglyphix writes:
Define God. If you can admit that attempting to do so is a lesson in futility, then the agnostic position makes a lot of sense.
I don't need to. Whatever individuals think god is, they can either believe in it or not believe in it. If they don't believe in whatever the say god is, then they're an atheist. If atheist doesn't mean a non belief in god(s), then it means nothing.
What do you care either way?
Because this is the place we come to argue such arcane points. Also see below.
Just because I don't necessarily believe in God doesn't necessarily mean that I disbelieve it by the same token.
If it doesn't, then I have no idea what you're talking about - it's evasive gobbledegook
Does the phrase 'I don't believe in god, but I'm not an atheist' mean anything to you? It doesn't to me.
If it helps, theism, deism, atheism are about beliefs. Gnosticism is about knowledge - 'I don't know' comes from fact not belief. None of us know whether god does or does not exist, we only know what we believe about god. We're all agnostics.
But there's something else here. A reluctance to accept the word atheist as descriptive of their non-belief. That's quite interesting.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-20-2015 5:29 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2015 7:30 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 229 of 414 (774652)
12-20-2015 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2015 7:30 AM


Dr A writes:
But there are other forms of non-belief. If I toss a coin, catch it, and then put it in my pocket without looking at it, then I have no belief that it came down tails, but that doesn't mean I think it didn't, and I am perfectly agnostic with respect to that proposition.
Analagies are always problematic. The idea of a belief in the outcome of a coin toss being equivalent to belief in a god is a bit (lot) of a stretch. However, I agree that everyone is agnostic about the outcome of a coin toss in those circumstances - in the sense that they don't know and can't know.
But I'm saying that it's actually the same with the god problem. We don't know and can't know whether god exists or not. We can only believe that he/it does or doesn't. Belief is positive, there isn't a middle position - like pregnancy. 'I'm not sure whether I believe in god or not' doesn't make sense, if you're not sure, then you don't believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2015 7:30 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2015 9:38 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 231 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2015 10:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 235 of 414 (774659)
12-20-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2015 10:35 AM


Dr A writes:
But "I'm not sure whether there is a god or not" does make sense,
Yup. That's pretty much everyone but the delusional's view. It's usually followed by "but I do/don't believe in him/her/it." All I'm saying is that you must know if you believe in something or if you don't. Is it possible to be not sure if we believe something or not? It seems to me that you can ossilate between yes and no but as soon as you say "I don't know" then you don't.
just like "I'm not sure whether it was tails or heads".
Not really. If someone says that, we know that what they actually mean is that they don't know which it is. A belief that it's heads - or tails - doesn't make sense, at least rationally.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2015 10:35 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2015 2:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 236 of 414 (774660)
12-20-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2015 9:38 AM


CatSci writes:
Atheism can mean that you do take the positive belief that god does not exist.
Correct and that's my position. But that final step is a leap of 'faith'.
A person that says I don't believe in god but I accept that I don't know whether there is or there isn't a god, is still an atheist. By definition. You can't not believe in god and not be an atheist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2015 9:38 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 240 of 414 (774665)
12-20-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
12-20-2015 1:09 PM


ringo writes:
I have an active disbelief in your ability to make an intelligent comment.
You may well think that but would you understand if one came your way? (Smiley face because it's goodwill to all season.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 12-20-2015 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 12-20-2015 1:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 242 of 414 (774669)
12-20-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
12-20-2015 1:27 PM


As you wish - I'll stick with this:
ringo writes:
I personally don't believe that any gods exist...
That makes you an atheist
... but I don't self-identify as an atheist.
Tough, you are one. Denial of a fact, leaves the fact in place.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 12-20-2015 1:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 12-20-2015 2:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 245 of 414 (774673)
12-20-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2015 2:01 PM


Dr A writes:
And if someone says "I don't know whether there's a god or not", we know that what they actually mean is that they don't know whether there's a god or not.
Yup, but we don't know whether they believe in a god or not either. Which is what we're trying to get at.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2015 2:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2015 10:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 250 of 414 (774688)
12-20-2015 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
12-20-2015 2:00 PM


ringo writes:
I don't self-identify as "tall". I don't self-identify as a shoe-wearer. I don't have to acknowledge every single fact.
If you're tall, you're tall. If you wear shoes, you wear shoes. It's only an issue if you say you don't wear shoes and I can see them on your feet.
And whilst you claim not to have to self-identify, it was you that did.
ringo writes:
I personally don't believe that any gods exist but I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as an agnostic.
I can see your shoes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 12-20-2015 2:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 10:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 254 of 414 (774711)
12-21-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by ringo
12-21-2015 10:57 AM


ringo writes:
I self-identify as agnostic while you insist on labelling me as atheist
Yeh, I'm weird like that:
ringo writes:
I personally don't believe that any gods exist
atheist
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
ringo writes:
If I self-identified as atheist, too many people would assume that I believe no god exists......If I self-identify as agnostic, I only have a handful of True Unbelievers like you to deal with.
It's probably an American thing - this fear of coming out. Too many people would apparently hate you - it's all a bit mediaeval. Not something that's a problem here so it's hard to understand.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 11:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
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