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Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 207 of 414 (774593)
12-19-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by deerbreh
12-18-2015 3:02 PM


deerbreh writes:
Disbelief is a belief.
According to the all-powerful Yahoo! Answers:
quote:
Disbelief is being shaken up by a challenge to a belief about something or someone
Unbelief is active rejection of a belief
Nonbelief is non -acceptance of a belief
"I can't believe you said that!" is disbelief. In this particular example, you know it's true but you still "can't believe".
Not believing in Odin is nonbelief. You can believe in Ganesh and non-believe in Odin at the same time.
What you're describing is more like unbelief: Unbelievers believe that God un-exists.
I personally don't believe that any gods exist but I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as an agnostic. I have no active unbelief. People who do self-identify as atheists may or may not be "sure". There's little to be gained by labelling people one way or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by deerbreh, posted 12-18-2015 3:02 PM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by herebedragons, posted 12-19-2015 1:11 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2015 1:55 PM ringo has replied
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2015 2:43 PM ringo has replied
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 12-19-2015 8:34 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 238 of 414 (774663)
12-20-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Tangle
12-19-2015 1:55 PM


Tangle writes:
Do you have an active disbelief in Father Christmas?
I have an active disbelief in your ability to make an intelligent comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2015 1:55 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2015 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 414 (774664)
12-20-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by AZPaul3
12-19-2015 2:43 PM


AZPaul3 writes:
That does not preclude you from also being agnostic, from the Greek agnost or agnotos - not knowing or incapable of being known.
Everybody's agnostic, from the most rabid believer to the most rabid unbeliever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2015 2:43 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 414 (774667)
12-20-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Tangle
12-20-2015 1:21 PM


Tangle writes:
You may well think that but would you understand if one came your way?
The point is that I DO have an active disbelief. You didn't comment on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2015 1:21 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2015 1:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 414 (774670)
12-20-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tangle
12-20-2015 1:54 PM


Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
... but I don't self-identify as an atheist.
Tough, you are one.
You evangelicals are funny.
I don't self-identify as "tall". I don't self-identify as a shoe-wearer. I don't have to acknowledge every single fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2015 1:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2015 6:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 252 of 414 (774703)
12-21-2015 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Tangle
12-20-2015 6:17 PM


Tangle writes:
And whilst you claim not to have to self-identify, it was you that did.
I self-identify as agnostic while you insist on labelling me as atheist.
I don't self-identify as atheist because not everybody agrees with your definition of atheist. If I self-identified as atheist, too many people would assume that I believe no god exists. It's better communication.
If I self-identify as agnostic, I only have a handful of True Unbelievers like you to deal with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2015 6:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 11:38 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 255 of 414 (774713)
12-21-2015 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Tangle
12-21-2015 11:38 AM


Tangle writes:
It's probably an American thing - this fear of coming out.
It's not about "coming out". The religious people I know are equally horrified by agnosticism and by atheism.
It's about communication. If people think "atheist" means "believes there is no God" then identifying myself as an atheist gives them the wrong idea. I don't care what people think of me but I'd rather they form their opinions on accurate information.
As for fear of coming out, some atheists seem to be afraid to admit that they don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 11:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 12:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 414 (774716)
12-21-2015 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Tangle
12-21-2015 12:18 PM


Tangle writes:
If you don't believe in god you're an atheist. That's the meat of the matter. The rest is obfuscation.
Nonsense. Insisting on one dictionary definition and ignoring all others is obfuscation.
If you want to play Dueling Dictionaries:
quote:
atheist
1. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. link
I neither deny nor disbelieve. Therefore, it ain't me.
Tangle writes:
Saying that your prime position is an agnostic but you don't believe in god has put the cart before the horse - and also makes no sense in plain English usage.
Plain English usage is exactly the point here. Most people don't define "atheist" the way you religious atheists do.
Tangle writes:
Then you have no excuse for not using words and terms accurately.
I am using the term accurately. Sometimes more accuracy involves less precision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 12:18 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 260 of 414 (774764)
12-22-2015 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Tangle
12-21-2015 12:43 PM


Tangle writes:
If you asked 100 people what an atheist was, 95 would say it's someone who didn't believe in god. The other 5 wouldn't know the word.
And 93 would think it meant an active disbelief in God. The other two would be atheist missionaries like you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 12:43 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2015 11:24 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 263 of 414 (774772)
12-22-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
12-22-2015 11:24 AM


Tangle writes:
The normal usage of the word atheist is a non-belief in god.
I had never even heard your usage before I came to EvC. The common usage is active disbelief in God. I'll take my own experience - and the dictionary definition that I quoted - over your "nuh-uh".
The wishy-washy "lacking in belief" that you talk about is commonly known as agnosticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2015 11:24 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2015 11:56 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 297 of 414 (786274)
06-19-2016 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
06-18-2016 3:14 PM


Re: Ringos Believe It Or Not
Phat writes:
Do you personally feel as if evidence would persuade you or others or are you more of the camp that prefers not to believe for reasons other than evidence?
There is no camp that prefers not to believe.
As I have said before, I personally would like to believe but I can't. It would especially be a comfort to believe that some of the people who have died before me I'll see again. I wish I could believe that but I can't.
Phat writes:
There are some who would prefer that there be no God.
I would prefer that no God or other alien warlord incinerate me. I have enough earthly enemies such as bacteria, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 307 of 414 (786397)
06-21-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
06-20-2016 5:25 PM


Tangle writes:
It's a response to the claim that gods exist.
So it isn't just a lack of response after all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 309 of 414 (786403)
06-21-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
06-21-2016 1:10 PM


Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
So it isn't just a lack of response after all?
uh?
Well, they say that baldness is just a lack of hair - not a hair colour. You don't go around telling people you're bald.
So, if atheism is just a lack of belief - not an active disbelief - then you don't need to go around telling people you don't believe. There's no need for a "response" to belief at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 1:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 311 of 414 (786405)
06-21-2016 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2016 1:24 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
I don't go around telling people that leprechauns don't exist.
I'm just saying that no response is actually necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 1:24 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 326 of 414 (786504)
06-22-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Tangle
06-21-2016 1:27 PM


Tangle writes:
That's possibly one of the dumbest arguments for arguments sake that you've come out with yet and there's a lot of competition.
So point out what's dumb about it. This is a discussion forum, not just an excuse for name-calling.
Tangle writes:
Except that believers try to use their beliefs to make me do things I don't want to and I regard as daft and dangerous in accordance to their beliefs.
Who said anything about believers? You insist that I am an atheist. You seem to want me on your side even though you think I'm dumb. You're an evangelical atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 5:35 PM ringo has replied

  
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