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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 501 of 511 (774761)
12-22-2015 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Admin
12-22-2015 7:50 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, a Question, and the Topic
A little more specificity about your meaning would be helpful. One guess I have is that you mean the infinite size of the universe could be greater than the infinite time, to the point that there will always be some usable energy somewhere. But that guess seems wrong since there's not space on the one hand and time on the other, but only spacetime.
I take it that I am being requested to comment.
I am not expressing any such idea that infinite size beats infinite time. The steady state model involved an ongoing creation of matter/energy during the expansion of the universe. It is very simplistic to expect that after an infinite amount of time for dissipating energy that we would run out of energy given that model. But further, even absent that point, the argument given was too simplistic. Entropy increases during some processes, but simply changing the form of energy, say from kinetic to potential energy in a frictionless context, does not increase entropy.
In short the accounting principles that lead to the prediction that in infinite time the universe would have to reach heat death are just plain sloppy. If those arguments are to be supported I would request more detail about how that would work. Dr. Adequate was asking for the same thing.
The reason for mentioning Einstein or others who supported this model was to make the point that it was the CMB and not some simplistic application of the 1st or 2nd law of thermodynamics that did in the steady state model.
If everything has to be created by something already in existence, why isn't this also true of the supernatural being proposed as the creator of the universe?
Because supernatural stuff does not obey whatever laws you want to make. Proponents using this argument have a built in escape clause. Supernatural entities are not bound by any rules. They can be eternal without ever running out of usable energy.
How does the universe having a beginning imply the existence of a supernatural being?
Everything has a cause. The universe cannot have a natural cause because nothing natural preceded the universe. If something natural did predate the universe, then the principle applies to its precursor. But supernatural, eternal beings don't have to follow this principle.
Edited by NoNukes, : Tone down a bit

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Admin, posted 12-22-2015 7:50 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Admin, posted 12-22-2015 9:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 503 of 511 (774773)
12-22-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 502 by Admin
12-22-2015 9:54 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, a Question, and the Topic
In my judgment there have been only non-answers and evasions so far.
Really? Because as I count, ICANT has been provided with a number of possible answers which I would spell out roughly as follows:
1) Not every natural thing requires a cause. Quantum mechanics provides examples of things that are not caused.
2) Time was created with the universe and therefore question about what existed before are meaningless.
3) The net energy of the universe is zero thus the requirement of a supernatural being to provide energy is not a requirement at all.
4) Colliding branes from another universe created the big bang.
Have there been responses to these ideas that are of any substance? Or are all of those ideas simple evasions?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Admin, posted 12-22-2015 9:54 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Admin, posted 12-22-2015 12:00 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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