Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 256 of 414 (774714)
12-21-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
12-21-2015 11:56 AM


ringo writes:
It's about communication. If people think "atheist" means "believes there is no God" then identifying myself as an atheist gives them the wrong idea.
If it's about communication, then you're failing miserably. If you don't believe in god you're an atheist. That's the meat of the matter. The rest is obfuscation.
If you cared about clarity you'd just say that you were an atheist, but of course you can't prove that god doesn't exist. Then everyone understands. Saying that your prime position is an agnostic but you don't believe in god has put the cart before the horse - and also makes no sense in plain English usage.
I don't care what people think of me but I'd rather they form their opinions on accurate information.
Then you have no excuse for not using words and terms accurately.
As for fear of coming out, some atheists seem to be afraid to admit that they don't know.
Every atheist I've ever met allows room for doubt and admits that they don't know - to do otherwise would be both logically wrong and plain dumb. Knowing is not the point - it's about what you believe.
The way it goes with me is:
1. I don't believe in god/s so i'm an atheist
2. I can't prove god/s doesn't/don't exist but as far as I can tell there's no evidence of them. (And lots of evidence that the original ideas that founded theisms were wrong - but that's another story).
3. I'll go one step further and say that god/s do/does not exist. But that's a statement of belief not knowledge. Otherwise called a conclusion - which may be wrong but which is supported by the evidence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 12:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 258 of 414 (774717)
12-21-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
12-21-2015 12:31 PM


Denial is an amazing thing.
If you asked 100 people what an atheist was, 95 would say it's someone who didn't believe in god. The other 5 wouldn't know the word.
If someone asked 100 people this question "I don't believe in god, what am I?" how many do you think would say agnostic? Close to zero - the others would run away.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 12:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 12-22-2015 10:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 262 of 414 (774770)
12-22-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
12-22-2015 10:42 AM


ringo writes:
And 93 would think it meant an active disbelief in God.
Cobblers. The normal usage of the word atheist is a non-belief in god.
You're in the wrong thread, the thread were you argue black is actually white is "Life - an unequivocal definition" you'll be happy there.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 12-22-2015 10:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 12-22-2015 11:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 265 of 414 (774777)
12-22-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by New Cat's Eye
12-22-2015 11:56 AM


"I don't believe in god, but I'm not an atheist - pure Alice in Wonderland. Weird pseudo-intellectual denial.
I'll say no more for a while.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2015 11:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 12-22-2015 2:18 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 268 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2015 5:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 267 of 414 (774790)
12-22-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
12-22-2015 2:18 PM


Phat writes:
All they are saying is that the possibility of God has not been ruled out---whereas you think evidence is everything and that God is likely an impossibility.
Oh Phat, that is absolutlety not what I'm saying and is not what I've said.
I repeatedly say - over and over and over again to the point that I've lost the will to live - that no one can say that god does not exist and it can't be ruled out.
Never-the-less, I don't believe that he she or it does. That's what an atheist is - someone that doesn't believe god(s) exist. All the other pseudo-intellectual masterbation and evasion is bullshit. In a country where atheists aren't so reviled this kind of eqivocation and denial is incomprehensible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 12-22-2015 2:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 271 of 414 (774824)
12-23-2015 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by New Cat's Eye
12-22-2015 5:55 PM


CatSci writes:
I do not hold the belief that god exist, but I don't mean to say that he doesn't
You seem to have gone to extraordinary lengths simply to repeat what has been said many times. I totally understand what you're saying - it's just wrong.
It's simply not possible for someone to say "I do not hold the belief that god exist, but I don't mean to say that he doesn't" and not be an atheist.
The qualifying statement of not insisting that god doesn't exist is merely an adjunct to the primary condition of a stated disbelief in the existence of god. Hence atheism.
Please, no more.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2015 5:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 275 of 414 (774869)
12-24-2015 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2015 10:24 PM


Dr A writes:
If they admit that they don't know whether there's a god or not, then presumably they don't believe there is one and they don't believe there isn't.
No. I don't believe there is a god. I don't know whether there is or not but I see no evidence for one. So I've concluded there isn't one pending contradictory information.
I can't know, but I can believe or not believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2015 10:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by NoNukes, posted 12-24-2015 12:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 282 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2015 11:34 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 06-17-2016 3:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 277 of 414 (774900)
12-24-2015 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by NoNukes
12-24-2015 12:33 PM


NN writes:
Why is it important, necessary, or even desired to reach a conclusion?
I didn't say it was, I said that's what I'd done.
What do you call people who don't reach a conclusion?
Atheists - because they don't believe in god. Belief is a positive, emotional state, those that have it tell us all about it.
How is reaching a conclusion based on incomplete information distinguishable from a belief?
It's what we all have to do all the time isn't it? Including science - a scientist looks at the evidence he has and attempts to form a conclusion. When we talk about gods, we talk about beliefs, not conclusions - If we had complete information belief wouldn't be necessary and scientific conclusion wouldn't be called tentative.
I know for certain that I don't believe in god - that's factual, as factual as Faith knowing that she does believe in her god. But I also make the leap to say that I also believe that God doesn't exist. That's a logical conclusion based on the evidence I have - call it a belief if you like, but don't confuse it with a religious belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by NoNukes, posted 12-24-2015 12:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-24-2015 2:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 280 of 414 (774910)
12-24-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tanypteryx
12-24-2015 2:45 PM


Tany writes:
Why are you guys all going around and around about what you call yourselves and each other based on the fine nuances of "I believe or I don't believe or I believe not?"
It's what we do around here, you know, argue the arse off things of no consequence - haven't you noticed?
If I try to do it with my wife but she tells me to shut the fuck up and empty the dishwasher.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-24-2015 2:45 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 283 of 414 (774931)
12-25-2015 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Dr Adequate
12-24-2015 11:34 PM


Dr A writes:
But what about someone who thought there was evidence for and evidence against? --- someone who felt the argument from design was balanced by the argument from evil? What then?
Then they don't know whether god exists or not.
But from that we don't know whether they believe in god or not. People believe in God for all sorts of reasons - not just because they think there's evidence. In fact, most people probably never even consider evidence at all - except in a 'isn't nature miraculous' way.
But belief is something you either have or you don't. Those that have a belief in god know they have a belief in god, if you don't know whether you believe in god or not, you don't believe in god. Gnosticism is about knowledge/evidence of god not belief in god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2015 11:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Hawkins, posted 06-17-2016 1:52 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 288 of 414 (786166)
06-17-2016 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
06-17-2016 3:59 PM


Re: GOD by definition
Phat writes:
I think it would be helpful, however, for us all to come to some sort of consensus on the definition of the thing we do or do not believe in.
God(s).

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 06-17-2016 3:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:43 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 299 of 414 (786361)
06-20-2016 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 4:53 PM


Cat Sci writes:
In the strictest sense, atheism is the position that there are no gods. It is not just simply "a response to a claim".
It's a response to the claim that gods exist.
It's a good description because if it wasn't for people saying that god's DO exist, it wouldn't occur to an atheist that they did.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:28 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 12:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 304 of 414 (786372)
06-21-2016 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 6:28 PM


quote:
A person could come to the question of gods existing on their own, and then later reject the idea and go on to proclaim that they don't.
  —cS
So someone with no concept of gods could invent gods then dismiss them? Ok he has a hypothesis, a kind of claim I guess, then rejects it for lack of supporting evidence. It's now gone away.
It's only the fact that others make the claim that god(s) exist that the claim still stands and has to be rejected again and again.
So this idea that it is merely and only a response to a claim cannot possibly be true.
If you say there is a god and I say there isn't, is that not a response to your claim?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2016 1:43 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 308 of 414 (786401)
06-21-2016 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by ringo
06-21-2016 12:19 PM


ringo writes:
So it isn't just a lack of response after all?
uh?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 1:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 312 of 414 (786406)
06-21-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by ringo
06-21-2016 1:18 PM


ringo writes:
So, if atheism is just a lack of belief - not an active disbelief - then you don't need to go around telling people you don't believe.
That's possibly one of the dumbest arguments for arguments sake that you've come out with yet and there's a lot of competition.
There's no need for a "response" to belief at all.
Except that believers try to use their beliefs to make me do things I don't want to and I regard as daft and dangerous in accordance to their beliefs. You know, like remove evolution from education, fund churches to spout nonsense and not shop on Sundays. Another bunch want to kill me. The hell I'll respond.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by ringo, posted 06-22-2016 3:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024