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Author | Topic: Does Atheism = No beliefs? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
CatSci writes: I do not hold the belief that god exist, but I don't mean to say that he doesn't You seem to have gone to extraordinary lengths simply to repeat what has been said many times. I totally understand what you're saying - it's just wrong. It's simply not possible for someone to say "I do not hold the belief that god exist, but I don't mean to say that he doesn't" and not be an atheist. The qualifying statement of not insisting that god doesn't exist is merely an adjunct to the primary condition of a stated disbelief in the existence of god. Hence atheism. Please, no more.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, kbertsche.
What you're saying sounds a lot like what I was trying to say, so I suppose we are in total agreement about how scientists operate. Where we may still differ is in how this assessment of scientists applies to atheists, so I'd like to solicit your thoughts on that matter. In my opinion, the same argument about scientists applies to atheists. Atheists on this forum always present ourselves in the 'idealized' fashion: that is, we say we lack belief in deity, and do not actually assert its non-existence. In practice though, we are highly biased against theistic propositions, which is effectively the same thing as 'believing' that god does not exist. I would argue that the bias is justified on pragmatic grounds (i.e. for the same resource-allocation arguments you were making about science); but I would also argue that the bias is in tension with our claim that we do nor disbelieve, bu tsimply lack beliefs. I believe the tension can be entirely attributed to our failures as imperfect humans to live up to our idealized aspirations. I feel like this gives us a comfortable 'middle ground' that may solve the discrepancy in the two sides' opinions on the whole 'what is an atheist' debate? Edited by Blue Jay, : No reason given.-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2401 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
quote: I can only speak for myself here, but I can only Ident as an atheist or an agnostic when you tell me which god or god concept you are asking about and I think that can lead to what would be a false conclusion (re: me) above. I actively believe that the Christian god does not exist - in the exact same way I actively believe that Santa doesn't exist. Just as with Santa, I can study the history of this god and determine origins. I sincerely do *not* actively believe that say a "deist" god doesn't exist - one that doesn't play a personal, day to day role in our lives. This God might exist ... how could I know? This is why I may identify as an atheist or an agnostic depending on the concept described. JB
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Yup, but we don't know whether they believe in a god or not either. If they admit that they don't know whether there's a god or not, then presumably they don't believe there is one and they don't believe there isn't. Just as someone who admits he doesn't know how the coin came down doesn't believe that it was heads and doesn't believe that it was tails.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dr A writes: If they admit that they don't know whether there's a god or not, then presumably they don't believe there is one and they don't believe there isn't. No. I don't believe there is a god. I don't know whether there is or not but I see no evidence for one. So I've concluded there isn't one pending contradictory information. I can't know, but I can believe or not believe.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So I've concluded there isn't one pending contradictory information Why is it important, necessary, or even desired to reach a conclusion? What do you call people who don't reach a conclusion? How is reaching a conclusion based on incomplete information distinguishable from a belief? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NN writes: Why is it important, necessary, or even desired to reach a conclusion? I didn't say it was, I said that's what I'd done.
What do you call people who don't reach a conclusion? Atheists - because they don't believe in god. Belief is a positive, emotional state, those that have it tell us all about it.
How is reaching a conclusion based on incomplete information distinguishable from a belief? It's what we all have to do all the time isn't it? Including science - a scientist looks at the evidence he has and attempts to form a conclusion. When we talk about gods, we talk about beliefs, not conclusions - If we had complete information belief wouldn't be necessary and scientific conclusion wouldn't be called tentative. I know for certain that I don't believe in god - that's factual, as factual as Faith knowing that she does believe in her god. But I also make the leap to say that I also believe that God doesn't exist. That's a logical conclusion based on the evidence I have - call it a belief if you like, but don't confuse it with a religious belief.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
I know I shouldn't ask this, but I am waiting for the wife to finish her last minute shopping.
Why are you guys all going around and around about what you call yourselves and each other based on the fine nuances of "I believe or I don't believe or I believe not?" What difference does it make in any of your lives? I call myself tall and good looking and I don't care what any of you say. What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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I think this boils down to "Someone is (perceived to be) wrong on the internet".
Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Tany writes: Why are you guys all going around and around about what you call yourselves and each other based on the fine nuances of "I believe or I don't believe or I believe not?" It's what we do around here, you know, argue the arse off things of no consequence - haven't you noticed? If I try to do it with my wife but she tells me to shut the fuck up and empty the dishwasher.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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What difference does it make in any of your lives? Surely making a hill of beans difference not the accepted internet standard for taking a position and refusing to acknowledge any point made by the other fellow. Somebody is wrong on the internet and they won't admit it. Isn't that enough? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I don't know whether there is or not but I see no evidence for one. That's as near to knowing something as it's possible to get. Unless you want "know" to mean "have knowledge so absolute that it could never be controverted by any conceivable data", then seeing no evidence of a thing that's meant to be everywhere is pretty good grounds for saying you know it doesn't exist. That does make you an atheist. But what about someone who thought there was evidence for and evidence against? --- someone who felt the argument from design was balanced by the argument from evil? What then?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dr A writes: But what about someone who thought there was evidence for and evidence against? --- someone who felt the argument from design was balanced by the argument from evil? What then? Then they don't know whether god exists or not. But from that we don't know whether they believe in god or not. People believe in God for all sorts of reasons - not just because they think there's evidence. In fact, most people probably never even consider evidence at all - except in a 'isn't nature miraculous' way. But belief is something you either have or you don't. Those that have a belief in god know they have a belief in god, if you don't know whether you believe in god or not, you don't believe in god. Gnosticism is about knowledge/evidence of god not belief in god.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1401 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
The existence of religions are closely tied up to an unknown lying in front us. It closely concerns our lives but remains unknown to us. It is the question that, "whether life will continue after death".
There are 2 main camps of believes. 1) Life continues, there might be something series would happen2) Life discontinues Those with belief 2) don't have the necessity to continue to think about "what could possibly happen". Because "Life discontinues" leaves no room for the possibility of "what could possibly happen". All religions (including atheism) branch out from these 2 camps. Ironically, there is no evidence showing that life discontinues. Of course, if life discontinues then no evidence will be available. However they choose (subconsciously) to neglect the possibility that life continues but not yet evidenced to humans. As for camp 1), if life continues then what would happen? The two possibilities now are open to them. It is possible that nothing serious would happen, it is also possible that something serious would happen. They are possibilities in the perspective that it's unknown to us. Either of the two is thus a faith. When it is said that "there's bomb nearby", we are facing the same 2 possibilities. It's possible that it's true, it's also possible that it's a hoax. If it's not a situation concerning our lives, it makes sense for us to stay in the area to investigate which of the two possibilities is more true. However "a bomb" is a life threatening situation, we should run disregarding which of the two is more true. Unless we have a more reliable source (say, the police) identified it as a hoax. Camp 1) however, as influenced (subconsciously) by the "life discontinues" faith fallaciously conclude that they should stay until more evidence showing that it's not a hoax. Atheism is such a religion with a large group of humans sharing a common belief.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Camp 1) however, as influenced (subconsciously) by the "life discontinues" faith fallaciously conclude that they should stay until more evidence showing that it's not a hoax. Atheism is such a religion with a large group of humans sharing a common belief. In my case, this is totally incorrect. My atheism has nothing to do with life after death. My atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of any gods. There is an old saying: "If atheism is a religion, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby."What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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