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Author Topic:   Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 31 of 135 (775351)
12-31-2015 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
12-31-2015 10:20 AM


NoNukes writes:


But the expression in dispute is "three days and three nights". If day three ends at dawn or even earlier, then there simply is no way to count "three nights" because there would only be two dark periods involved no matter what we count on day one.


In saying this, you implicitly assume that the phrase is NOT an idiom, and that it must literally include parts of three nights. You beg the question of whether or not it is an idiom.

Again, the question in this thread is whether or not the phrase "three days and three nights" is an idiom. If it IS an idiom, it doesn't necessarily need to include parts of three nights.

You respond by telling me (apparently) that "three days and three nights" might be an ancient idiom that covers "three days and two nights."

Yes. According to the standard interpretation of the gospel accounts, the period was less than 48 hours long.

But you don't offer any defense for your position other than your assertion. In fact the sole basis seems to be assuming Bible inerrancy. Pretty much pee poor in my opinion.

My explanation doesn't need to assume inerrancy. It only assumes consistency between the various Gospel writers and Paul. Their use of different wording for the same event and time period shows the phrases to be synonymous.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 12-31-2015 10:20 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 01-01-2016 11:01 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 135 (775352)
12-31-2015 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by kbertsche
12-31-2015 2:23 PM


The question in this thread is whether or not the phrase "three days and three nights" is an idiom. I have presented evidence for the view that it is.

I don't see any significant evidence provided by you that "three days and three nights is an idiom that is met by three days and only two nights. In particular the references cited all argue strongly that "three days" is an idiom that might cover the period between Friday and Sunday. I don't dispute that point. However the reasoning covering "three days and three nights" is extremely poor, and in fact is not supported by any evidence. I don't see a single example given of any other use of the phrase three days and three nights that is not consistent with the interpretation I use. Yet you have attempted to argue otherwise. Those attempts don't reflect well on the strength of your evidence.

But neither you nor NoNukes have proven that this phrase is NOT an idiom..

No, I have not proven such. But statements that my interpretation is anachronistic are statements that require something approaching proof/strong evidence on your part.

Just how strong is the Biblical evidence that Jesus is stated to have been crucified on Friday anyway?

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfm

quote:
With all of that said, it must be noted that the day of the week is not something we know from Scripture. If God wanted us to know whether it was Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, it would have been clearly stated.

Beyond that point, there are plenty of ways to make Friday to Sunday work. Where was Jesus when he was not in the tomb on Sunday morning?

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/...-the-heart-of-the-e

quote:
Peter indicates that Jesus too was in Hades (Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31), which is Sheol in the LXX, and Paul indicates that Jesus was "in the lower parts of the earth" (Eph 4:9). In other words, like Jonah, Jesus was in the belly of the earth (Sheol) for three days and three nights.

In short, IMO, much of the mental gymnastics about a short part of the morning actually meaning a day and a night are both unlikely and unnecessary. Even without getting into that, there is enough ambiguity about days and dates as to make the question fairly trivial unless there is supposed to be some numerology based reason to count three nights.

Edited by NoNukes, : Add sheol discussion

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by kbertsche, posted 12-31-2015 2:23 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 33 of 135 (775355)
12-31-2015 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by kbertsche
12-31-2015 2:23 PM


kbertsche,
re: "The question in this thread is whether or not the phrase 'three days and three nights' is an idiom.

That is incorrect. The issue is in regard to it being a "common" idiom.

Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by kbertsche, posted 12-31-2015 2:23 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 34 of 135 (775370)
01-01-2016 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by rstrats
12-29-2015 10:03 AM


This topic is not about calendar days. It's about daytimes and night times and whether or not it was common to say that a daytime and/or a night time was to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

The bible isn't always very clear on day and night. You need not look any further than Genesis to determine that.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 135 (775406)
01-01-2016 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by kbertsche
12-31-2015 2:36 PM


It only assumes consistency between the various Gospel writers and Paul.

If you can show this, that might help your argument. But I don't believe there is enough detail in the Bible to show even what day Jesus died let alone the proper interpretation of "three days and three nights". I went back over your posts and I don't see any such argument. Further, as I explained in another post, three days and three nights may well be consistent with a belief that Jesus was in Sheol after leaving the tomb. Under that interpretation, the correct time for considering Jesus to have left the heart of the earth in Jonah like fashion might well be early evening allowing us to count three nights rather than two.

n saying this, you implicitly assume that the phrase is NOT an idiom, and that it must literally include parts of three nights.

What I am saying is that I don't see any evidence that such an idiom exists. Absent a better argument for you, at best I am going to give that possibility a maybe and continue looking for an explanation. Not even consistency requires your interpretation.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kbertsche, posted 12-31-2015 2:36 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 36 of 135 (794448)
11-16-2016 6:32 AM


Someone new looking in may know of examples.
  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1903
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 37 of 135 (794449)
11-16-2016 7:05 AM


Goodness gracious me. People argue about what a day and a night means. Hey. Light. Dark. 24 hours all in all.

These guys are funny.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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rstrats
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 38 of 135 (794450)
11-16-2016 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Pressie
11-16-2016 7:05 AM


Pressle,

Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:05 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:28 AM rstrats has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1903
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 39 of 135 (794451)
11-16-2016 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by rstrats
11-16-2016 7:18 AM


rstrats writes:

Pressle, Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?

You can't be serious. Trying to deflect reality I see. Trying to change the subject. Hey, it's easy. Day. Light. Night. Dark. All in 24 hours.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by rstrats, posted 11-16-2016 7:18 AM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by rstrats, posted 11-16-2016 8:01 AM Pressie has not yet responded
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 10:29 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
rstrats
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 40 of 135 (794452)
11-16-2016 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Pressie
11-16-2016 7:28 AM


Pressle,
re: "You can't be serious."

Oh, but I am.

re: "Trying to deflect reality I see."

What reality do you think I am trying to deflect? Please be specific.

re: "Trying to change the subject."

The subject of this topic: There are some who have said that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I should think that one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise, i.e., examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:28 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 8:08 AM rstrats has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30846
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 41 of 135 (794456)
11-16-2016 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by rstrats
11-16-2016 8:01 AM


Why?
rstrats writes:

I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise, i.e., examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Why?

What possible difference could it make? Why should anyone care which meaning or meanings were correct? It's not like the Bible is not filled with contradictions, factual errors and ambiguities. What possible difference could one more such example make?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by rstrats, posted 11-16-2016 8:01 AM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by rstrats, posted 11-16-2016 4:04 PM jar has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 135 (794464)
11-16-2016 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Pressie
11-16-2016 7:28 AM


Hey, it's easy. Day. Light. Night. Dark. All in 24 hours.

You're missing the point.

In Matthew 12:40 Jesus says that, like Jonah did in the whale, he will spend 3 days and 3 nights in the ground.

The issue is that He died on a Friday and was raised on a Sunday. That's 3 days but only 2 nights.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:28 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 43 of 135 (794502)
11-16-2016 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
11-16-2016 8:08 AM


Re: Why?
jar,
re: "Why?"

Simply curious.

re: "What possible difference could it make?"

Whether it was common or not probably makes no differnce in the grand scheme of things.

re: " Why should anyone care which meaning or meanings were correct?"

That's an issue for another topic.

re: " It's not like the Bible is not filled with contradictions, factual errors and ambiguities."

What contradiction, factual error or ambiguity does Matthew 12:40 show?

re: "What possible difference could one more such example make?"

One more? I have yet to see even one example.

Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 8:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 4:19 PM rstrats has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30846
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 44 of 135 (794513)
11-16-2016 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by rstrats
11-16-2016 4:04 PM


Re: Why?
quote:
re: " It's not like the Bible is not filled with contradictions, factual errors and ambiguities."

What contradiction, factual error or ambiguity does Matthew 12:40 show?

re: "What possible difference could one more such example make?"

One more? I have yet to see even one example.


If you have never seen an example of a Biblical contradictions, factual error and ambiguity you have simply never honestly read the Bible.

In the instance of this thread there was a question of what the actual terms meant. The fact that there is a question with multiple responses is direct evidence of a Biblical ambiguity and that one of the responses if not both are factually wrong.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by rstrats, posted 11-16-2016 4:04 PM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by rstrats, posted 11-17-2016 7:37 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 45 of 135 (794559)
11-17-2016 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
11-16-2016 4:19 PM


Re: Why?
jar,
re: "If you have never seen an example..."

Sorry, I misread you comment. When I said that I'd not seen even one example, I was referring to an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 4:19 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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