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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 151 of 478 (775432)
01-01-2016 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by GDR
01-01-2016 4:32 PM


GDR writes:
Can you explain to me why it is that theists are so vehemently opposed to saying that they believe that there is nothing but natural processes and that no deity exists?
Maybe you meant atheists? If not then I found this confusing, and others may also.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 4:32 PM GDR has replied

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 152 of 478 (775433)
01-01-2016 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Hyroglyphx
01-01-2016 2:16 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then your "belief" is at odds with your own religion. Either God knows all things or he doesn't. And if he doesn't know all things, as you are suggesting here, then the Scriptures must necessarily be in error, in which case you would have to reasonably call in to question its entirety.
God's omniscience:
"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." -- John 3:20
"Do you know how God lays his command upon them and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine? Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge" -- Job 37:15-16
So which is it; because you can't have it both ways?
I have not said that I don't believe that God knows everything, whatever everything even means in this case.
I'm saying that I believe that in general the future is unknowable even to God. It is my contention that He has created a world where the future is open. I wrote this earlier to Tangle:
quote:
Omniscience is about knowing everything there is to know. It is my belief, that the future is open and unknowable even to God.
If the future is knowable then all of history is pre-ordained. There would be no free will and everything becomes purposeless. This is not the message of the Bible, where we see in the OT Yahweh negotiating with the Jews, nor do we see it in the NT where Jesus exhorts people to change their ways. The whole point of Jesus doing what He did becomes pointless if all history is pre-ordained.
I suggest that I'm still only having it one way. Happy 2016.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2016 2:16 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-02-2016 3:36 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 153 of 478 (775434)
01-01-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
01-01-2016 2:16 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
You make the mistake of thinking they are "innocents." That's the whole point everybody is missing. God is punishing accumulated sins. In some cases there is a report about those sins so you don't have to just assume it, but I am writing from a vacation place and don't want to take the time to look stuff up. The OT is supposed to teach us about how judgment comes against us, for what reasons and so on, but if you call them "innocents" you miss the whole point. Allah murders innocents, Jehovah does not.
Just curious Faith. Do you consider yourself one of the innocents? Doesn't the Bible say that there is no one righteous.
In an earlier post you claimed that God brought retribution to the US via the civil war. How about those who died fighting against the practice of slavery? You didn't respond to the idea that slavery was abolished in Britain due primarily to the work of the Christian William Wilberforce without any bloodshed. Does God like the Brits better than the Yanks? (Actually He is particularly fond of Canadians but we'll keep that between ourselves. )
Have a great 2016 Faith. You have an indomitable spirit.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 2:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 10:44 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 154 of 478 (775435)
01-01-2016 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Admin
01-01-2016 5:19 PM


Admin writes:
Maybe you meant atheists? If not then I found this confusing, and others may also.
Thanks Percy. I'll correct it.
While you are here I just want to thank you for this forum. I have benefited tremendously from it, both by hearing what others have to say, and even to see how what I believe sounds by actually having to put it down in writing.
It has been a great education for some one like myself who doesn't have the background and education that many here have.
It is also a very well organized and laid out site with very good moderation.
Thanks again for the gift of this forum and have a great 2016.
Greg

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Admin, posted 01-01-2016 5:19 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 155 of 478 (775441)
01-01-2016 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by GDR
01-01-2016 4:32 PM


GDR writes:
Here is what wiki says.
quote:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists
This pretty much agrees with your position, although frankly I don't get it. Can you explain to me why it is that atheists are so vehemently opposed to saying that they believe that there is nothing but natural processes and that no deity exists. I could just as easily say that I don't believe that humans along with the rest of the world are strictly the result of natural mindless processes.
I would have thought that if you can't make the I believe statement that you would be considered an agnostic. However, this is a matter of interest and in the end we both know where you stand on the subject.
GDR, I recommend that you look at the thread "Does Atheism = No Beliefs?". You'll see that not all atheists view atheism the same way.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 4:32 PM GDR has replied

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Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 156 of 478 (775443)
01-01-2016 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by herebedragons
01-01-2016 3:53 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Yahweh was being called a murder, I was trying to show that these abnormal beings had to be destroyed with that flood, or we would not be here right now? It is a cool research, start a thread, let's learn.
Edited by Bob Bobber, : No reason given.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 157 of 478 (775445)
01-01-2016 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by kbertsche
01-01-2016 8:12 PM


kbertsche writes:
GDR, I recommend that you look at the thread "Does Atheism = No Beliefs?". You'll see that not all atheists view atheism the same way.
I skimmed through that thread and it is fairly clear that there are varying degrees of atheism. I can however accept the fact that they don't believe in any god or gods and go with that. As an aside I don't believe in naturalism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by kbertsche, posted 01-01-2016 8:12 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 158 of 478 (775446)
01-01-2016 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Bob Bobber
01-01-2016 9:27 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Bob Bobber writes:
Yahweh was being called a murder, I was trying to show that these abnormal beings had to be destroyed with that flood, or we would not be here right now? It is a cool research, start a thread, let's learn.
As a Christian it is my belief that the flood story is to be understood as an allegory and we know there were other flood mythologies at the time and so this is just put a Jewish spin on it. The simplest take away message for the Christian from the story is that God isn't about to give up on us.
However the main point I want to make is this. In the case of the flood we have Yahweh Himself being responsible for the slaughter. In other cases in the OT it has Yahweh commanding the people He has loved to slaughter all men, women and children of another community. This of course makes a mockery of Jesus' command to love our neighbour.
Also however we have to ask what this slaughter would do to the hearts and minds of those carrying out this genocidal slaughter. These are the ones who were commissioned to spread God's love. Just look at what has happened to people in modern history who have come back from the various wars. I had a great Uncle who simply drank himself to death after WW I because he couldn't live with what he had had to face. How much worse would it have been if he had been called to personally, by his own hands kill women and children. Do you believe in a god that would command anyone to do this, let alone the people He has chosen to be His emissaries.
If you actually believe that God is capable of all this I really have to question why it is that you worship Him? Personally I worship God because I firmly believe that He is good all the time, not just some of the time. I worship the God that I see embodied by Jesus who loved the enemy, turned the other cheek and told His followers that the fight was not against people but against evil itself and the weapon against that evil was love. If we fight evil with more evil we know conclusively that evil will always win.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-01-2016 9:27 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 10:35 PM GDR has replied
 Message 162 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-01-2016 11:26 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 159 of 478 (775447)
01-01-2016 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by GDR
01-01-2016 10:30 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Loving your neighbor never meant to let sin go unpunished.
If the Bible is God's word then its account of the Flood is the true one and the others are the embellished and imperfect memories of fallen humanity.
There is enough reason given in scripture for the Flood, but I have heard the explanation Bob is giving. Just figure it's not the sort of thing to talk about at EvC where people have trouble with far less "weird" stuff.
God is always good, including when He judges sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 10:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 160 of 478 (775448)
01-01-2016 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by GDR
01-01-2016 5:40 PM


Re: misrepresentation
There is no one righteous but judgment is given at the right time, when sins have accumulated to a certain point, as scripture says about the nations God wiped out. Only God can decide whom to punish and when, except for the legal authorities who have the responsibility to judge clearcut crimes.
As I recall what I said about the Civil War was that some regard it as judgment for slavery. I don't try to figure such things out to the last detail. I have no idea why Britain wasn't punished by a civil war but although they were certainly up to their ears in the slave trade they didn't have a whole section of their country run by slavery. Besides it could be said they were punished by losing their Empire. Who knows, GDR, I didn't say anything beyond a suggestion and all this is speculation, we can't possibly know what all goes into God's determination of such things.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 161 of 478 (775449)
01-01-2016 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
01-01-2016 10:35 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Loving your neighbor never meant to let sin go unpunished.
That isn't the point here.
Faith writes:
If the Bible is God's word then its account of the Flood is the true one and the others are the embellished and imperfect memories of fallen humanity.
Well is Jesus the "Word" of God or is the Bible the "Word" of God. The Gospel of John tells us that the "Word" became flesh in Jesus. It cannot be both as you cannot reconcile the god of the flood and other atrocities with the God the Father that we see incarnate in the life and words of Jesus. I know that you think you can but the two visions of God are irreconcilable.
Again I go back to the notion that the flood itself is bad enough but the idea that Yahweh would command His followers to slaughter women and children would put Him in the same category as Pol Pot if it were true. And again, why would anyone who hates evil worship a god like that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

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 Message 159 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 10:35 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by kbertsche, posted 01-02-2016 12:53 AM GDR has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 162 of 478 (775450)
01-01-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by GDR
01-01-2016 10:30 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Turn the other cheek, love your neighbor, cool sayings, but why was Jesus saying those things? You fail to take into account that when it came to Israel’s promised earthly kingdom and the forgiveness of sins by the earthly King of that promised earthly kingdom, what was absolutely essential to that forgiveness being granted? It’s always been the issue of faith down through out history. 

Faith of course, without faith they would not be forgiven and without forgiveness there would not be any healing. What would faith do in that program, when faith was called upon to do a work to prove itself? Do not forget that Jesus was preparing the Israelites for that 7 years they own the law contract? A so called Christian in this age of grace has nothing to do with any of this. Sure we can learn from this, because it is for our learning and understanding. If I did not turn the other cheek in this age of grace, did I break a standard? No. 

It kinda sounds like God is your buddy in the sky, my friend would never do anything evil. Yahweh has done nothing evil, Satan keeps attacking his creation? When it comes to these abnormal beings running around on God’s planet, he has promises he made and Satan will not win the war. Gen. 3:15, this story is written is the stars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 10:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 163 of 478 (775451)
01-01-2016 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
01-01-2016 10:44 PM


Re: misrepresentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKnF1HEUwuo
Understanding what the people are trying to accompilish behind what this video is talking about will help you understand a little about the Civil War.

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Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 164 of 478 (775454)
01-02-2016 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by herebedragons
01-01-2016 1:58 PM


Re: misrepresentation
What would get me the loony award would be me explaining what was going on the earth, when it was in the first heaven? That is a trip how all that was sit up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by herebedragons, posted 01-01-2016 1:58 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 165 of 478 (775456)
01-02-2016 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by GDR
01-01-2016 10:57 PM


Re: misrepresentation
GDR writes:
Well is Jesus the "Word" of God or is the Bible the "Word" of God.
Both. Jesus is the LIVING Word of God and Scripture is the WRITTEN Word of God.
The Gospel of John tells us that the "Word" became flesh in Jesus. It cannot be both as you cannot reconcile the god of the flood and other atrocities with the God the Father that we see incarnate in the life and words of Jesus. I know that you think you can but the two visions of God are irreconcilable.
I agree that there is some tension here, but not that the issue is "irreconcilable". There are a number of approaches to reconciling these things.
Again I go back to the notion that the flood itself is bad enough but the idea that Yahweh would command His followers to slaughter women and children would put Him in the same category as Pol Pot if it were true. And again, why would anyone who hates evil worship a god like that.
If God really is God, He knows and understands much more than we do. Some of His actions may be difficult for us to understand, and may even seem "wrong". But if we know and trust Him, we can trust that He knows what He's doing here, too.
FYI, Charlie Trimm gave a good talk at the 2013 ETS meeting on "Genocide and Inerrancy". I believe he went over about five different proposals for viewing OT genocide. The only link I can find to it costs $4: Charlie Trimm Genocide and Inerrancy - A Categorization and Evaluation of Recent Approaches to YHWHs Commanded Destruction of the Canaanites - WordMp3.com . If you are interested, maybe I can hunt down my notes and summarize them.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 10:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 1:13 AM kbertsche has not replied
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