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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 196 of 478 (775699)
01-04-2016 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
01-01-2016 2:18 PM


Re: misrepresentation
So when God tells Joshua to spare no one, even pregnant mothers...the unborn were also guilty? Can you please tell me unequivocally that you support this? Are you willing to go on the record stating that you think it was a good thing that Joshua slaughtered the crying infants and the unborn because of their parents' religion?
Would you have participated had you been there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 2:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 9:57 AM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 197 of 478 (775702)
01-04-2016 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by GDR
01-01-2016 2:34 PM


The message was of course that they were chosen, and again, it wasn't because they were special, it was because they were to spread God's love to the world so that the whole world would be blessed.
And what that means is to spread the truth about who God is and ultimately bring salvation to the whole world. That's what the blessing is.
Instead the early Jews made it about them and the land with Yahweh being exclusively their god. They then set about attempting to control Yahweh through their military and other means.
I don't know what attempting to control God means, but the Jews still make it all about them, about the land of Israel and wisdom they feel called to spread to the world, which of course doesn't include Jesus the Messiah whom they deny.
I think that as Christians we have the same lesson to learn. God is god of all and not just Christians. Christians aren't special.
This is just weird. Christians are those who believe what God said, that makes us special. God is certainly God of all, there is only one God, and everybody should believe what He said. But only those who do believe Him are His in the special sense of being saved.
The more we focus on personal salvation making it all about us,
This is extremely weird. All this is what is known as "Open Theism?" Another human distortion of God's will obviously. Salvation is the gift God gives to all who believe, but it doesn't stop there, "all about us" of all the nutty ideas, our job is to take that message to as many as we can so that they may believe too.
the further we are removed from the mission that we have been given, through the Word of God as embodied in Jesus, which is to lovingly serve God's good creation.
Another really silly idea. The Creation stopped being good in the sense it was when created, when our first parents disobeyed God and brought themselves and the entire Creation under His curse. While we are certainly to be good stewards of the creation, our mission is to spread the good news of the gospel of salvation through the death of Christ, which pays for the sins that would otherwise have to be paid for by us in an eternity of Hell. Sure sounds like good news to me, whereas "serving the Creation" just sounds like some sort of sanctimonious stickysweet nonsense.
It is again like the early Jews who believed that if they strictly followed all the laws that Yahweh would return and give them victory.
You slander the "early Jews" I think. There was a lot more to their understanding than you give them credit for, at least some of them anyway; and it's true that they never got the message of the OT.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 2:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 6:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 198 of 478 (775704)
01-04-2016 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Aussie
01-04-2016 9:02 AM


Re: misrepresentation
So when God tells Joshua to spare no one, even pregnant mothers...the unborn were also guilty? Can you please tell me unequivocally that you support this? Are you willing to go on the record stating that you think it was a good thing that Joshua slaughtered the crying infants and the unborn because of their parents' religion?
It would help if you would identify the chapter and verse so I can see what the context is, because I can't find the reference you have in mind. However, I find various mentions of the slaughters of the Canaanites that God commanded which I assume is what you are talking about.
Here's one.
The author of this article gives God's reasons for the elimination of all the Canaanites:
Deuteronomy says that if Israel doesn’t get rid of all the Canaanites, then they will end up leading Israel astray (Deut. 20:18). And this is exactly what happens. Israel does not drive out all the Canaanites and Israel ends up getting Canaanized. In fact, Israel’s dark history is littered with many Canaanite-like practices, including idolatry, child sacrifice, and male cult prostitutionall of which they learned from the Canaanites left in the land (1 Kings 14:24; 21:26; 2 Kings 16:3; 17:8; 21:2).
Now, the killing of children still doesn’t sit right with me. And yet Israel’s failure to dispose all the Canaanites ends up biting them in the end. Their moral collapse, which elicited God’s judgment, began when they failed to drive out all the Canaanites from the land.
Israel failed to drive them all out and eventually succumbed to the same evil practices --idolatry, child sacrifice, male cult prostitution.
The author is bothered by the command to slaughter women and children and goes on to consider how perhaps the text doesn't really mean to say that. But the fact seems to be that if any are left living the Israelites will be corrupted by their evil practices. Women left alive could certainly pass on those practices, just as Solomon's many wives led him into idolatry. And what would the widowed women do? Marry Israelites? That would give them even more opportunity to corrupt them. But how could babies pass on those practices? I don't know. But what's the option then? Israel adopts the babies and brings them up as Israelites or what? And what age would you stop at? Remember the Canaanites offered their children in sacrifice to their gods! At what age would their children remember enough of the practices to keep them alive so that ultimately they would corrupt others? Are you OK with slaughtering six year olds?
Are you at all concerned about a nation that practices child sacrifice and male prostitution as part of its idolatrous religion or do you think there is no such thing as evil that can corrupt others or what?
God commands total annihilation in some cases for such reasons, to bring corruption to an end. It never completely works, even the Flood didn't bring corruption to an end although it certainly did away with most of humanity whom He judged guilty of violence and evil imaginations that had corrupted all peoples. The evil inclinations are at least sharply reduced for a while, however.
God is trying to teach us something about good and evil but it sounds like many here would be happy to see evil proliferate. Perhaps it's more like just not believing in evil though.
I don't judge God, He knows what He's doing and it's always for the good.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 9:02 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 10:59 AM Faith has replied
 Message 201 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 11:20 AM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 199 of 478 (775710)
01-04-2016 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
01-04-2016 9:57 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith. We are not happy to see evil proliferate. That is why we condemn the slaughter of innocent children because of their parent's religion. The correct moral conclusion is not choosing an age at which the child should be killed! Can you hear yourself typing these words?
The correct moral conclusion of a just society living in the modern world should be the condemnation of the genocide of a population because they worship a different deity than the attackers. Out one side of your mouth you condemn child sacrifice, yet out of the other side you promote the murder of babies. Think about this honestly Faith. You are publicly promoting and defending the murder of babies. We publicly condemn it. Please, PLEASE don't call us morally compromised. The killing of children "Doesn't sit right" with the author? Is he kidding? Are you kidding? The killing of children should make any moral person sick and outraged.
Again I extend this to the New Testament where the innocent Son is slaughtered for a crime He did not commit.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 9:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:51 PM Aussie has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 200 of 478 (775713)
01-04-2016 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
01-03-2016 7:58 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Phat writes:
Im not satan, after all.
Yes you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 7:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 11:37 AM ringo has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 201 of 478 (775715)
01-04-2016 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
01-04-2016 9:57 AM


Re: misrepresentation
I don't judge God, He knows what He's doing and it's always for the good.
This is very lazy Faith. I truly say this respectfully because you are about the age of my mother, and you would both get along famously. She thinks like you, exactly, and sounds like you when she discusses Scripture. But here you are, publicly defending the murder of babies, and when pressed you absolve yourself of the moral responsibility of what you say by hand-waving and declaring, "I don't judge God." No, Faith... take responsibility for your own thoughts and words. My mother will not. You are publicly approving the slaughter of children, please defend it.
You have also not defended why you believe that killing the innocent (Jesus Christ) is justice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 9:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:18 PM Aussie has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 202 of 478 (775717)
01-04-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by GDR
01-03-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
If God knows the entire future and it is set before we are even born why bother with the Holy Spirit?
Because that is your destiny.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 01-03-2016 7:46 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 478 (775719)
01-04-2016 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by ringo
01-04-2016 11:08 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Phat writes:
Im not satan, after all.
ringo writes:
Yes you are.
Whatever are you going to do with me?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 204 of 478 (775720)
01-04-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
01-04-2016 11:37 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Phat writes:
Whatever are you going to do with me?
Treat you like a human being, satanic qualities and all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 11:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 205 of 478 (775732)
01-04-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Aussie
01-04-2016 11:20 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Get your mother on here, we'll tell you what for.
I've already answered you adequately a number of times.
Yes I approve of whatever God does because it's right. And again, it is not murder, it is justice. The Canaanite sins accumulated for over four hundred years before God punished them. Calling justice murder is a horrendous exchange of good for evil that is done all the time these days.
The idea that I should have to defend the sacrifice of Christ is offensive in the extreme.
He gave Himself for us, laid down His own life, and accomplished the salvation of millions and you want me to defend this as if it were a miscarriage of justice?
Do you know the Bible at all? Do you understand the relation of death to sin?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 11:20 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 2:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 206 of 478 (775733)
01-04-2016 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Aussie
01-04-2016 8:45 AM


Re: misrepresentation
The merciless brutality of the cross when He could have chosen to...forgive. Jesus "Paying the price" is not forgiveness. It's paying the freaking sky-high price!
The cross represents the altar of sacrifice. God ordained those countless animal sacrifices in the OT as a picture of the costliness of redeeming us from sin, yes a sky-high price payable only by the Son of God. The animal sacrifices couldn't save, only the sacrifice of a sinless man could accomplish that, and there are no sinless men except Jesus. God couldn't just choose to forgive, "the wages of sin is death" and the cost must be paid.
What are we teaching our kids? That when they are wronged in the schoolyard or playground that the should forgive ONLY after extracting a heinous penalty from the wrongdoer? Or some other innocent kid who had nothing to do with the incident? That's not what forgiveness means.
It's ridiculous to think the unique sacrifice of Christ is ever made an example to our children, or understood as an example to them by anyone.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 8:45 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 2:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 207 of 478 (775735)
01-04-2016 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
01-04-2016 2:18 PM


Re: misrepresentation
One of my degrees is in Protestant theology, so yes I have some familiarity with Scripture. But that's beside the point. And you haven't answered me at all... could you in your own words please describe to me in which sense plunging a sword into an infant's belly is "Justice?" for the sins of it's long-dead ancestors? Would you do this if God told you to? Please don't hand-wave this away. If you had been there, would you have participated? This is an important moral point and I'm not convinced you are going to answer it directly.
Why should you NOT have to defend your assertions of Scripture? Why should WE not feel offended when you offer us blood soaked pages and tell us we should intuitively understand that it is okay to carry out brutal vengeance on an innocent party, and call it "Justice."
I understand well the Scriptural relation of death to sin. At the first bite of fruit, God demanded blood. In your theology there is no higher arbiter of law than God. The wages of sin is death BECAUSE of God. Instead of true forgiveness, He is only satisfied by blood...because He wants blood.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:18 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 3:48 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 208 of 478 (775736)
01-04-2016 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
01-04-2016 2:31 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith...why only blood? Why not simply forgive?
From the first bite of fruit He demanded a hundred thousand slit and bleeding throats. He required the torture and bloody back of His own Son. This is not forgiveness. He did not forgive...He killed. He required blood because He delights in the scent of it.
Your God drips blood.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:56 PM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 209 of 478 (775737)
01-04-2016 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Aussie
01-04-2016 10:59 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith. We are not happy to see evil proliferate. That is why we condemn the slaughter of innocent children because of their parent's religion.
Judging God to be evil is the greatest evil there could ever be. We are told God is good and believers believe it. You self-righteously judge Him.
"Because of their parents' religion?" Right, you all think ISIS is the same as Christianity, or at least the OT, you think all religions have a right to exist, even religions that sacrifice their own children and are celebrated by prostitituion in the temples. You've all lost your minds, you all who made such horrendous moral equivalences.
The correct moral conclusion is not choosing an age at which the child should be killed! Can you hear yourself typing these words?
The correct moral conclusion of a just society living in the modern world should be the condemnation of the genocide of a population because they worship a different deity than the attackers.
You learned nothing from your preacher father and your godly mother. Only the Bible is the revelation of the true God, the true religion, all the others are the inventions of Satan. Which ought to be obvious really. "Worship a different deity" you say? They worship Satan.
Out one side of your mouth you condemn child sacrifice, yet out of the other side you promote the murder of babies. Think about this honestly Faith.
Stop preaching at me, you are the one who needs to learn honesty. I know what I believe and why I believe it. You are incapable of distinguishing between justice and murder.
You are publicly promoting and defending the murder of babies. We publicly condemn it.
You are condemning God's justice, which I am affirming!
Please, PLEASE don't call us morally compromised.
Oh but you are! You confuse murder, a crime punishable by death, with God's justice in the punishing of it.
The killing of children "Doesn't sit right" with the author? Is he kidding? Are you kidding? The killing of children should make any moral person sick and outraged.
My my my how you love and adore your self-righteousness. I haven't claimed to understand why God included babies, but I know God and I know it can only be justice, unlike you who impose your own fallible human righteousness on God.
Again I extend this to the New Testament where the innocent Son is slaughtered for a crime He did not commit.
Millions upon millions of sins and crimes as a matter of fact, that He willingly chose to pay for in His own body to set free millions upon millions of grateful sinners.
Sorry you've rejected the glorious gift.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 10:59 AM Aussie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 6:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 210 of 478 (775738)
01-04-2016 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Aussie
01-04-2016 2:49 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith...why only blood? Why not simply forgive?
I answered you already. Go start your own religion. I'm sure you'll find followers.
From the first bite of fruit He demanded a hundred thousand slit and bleeding throats.
What?
He required the torture and bloody back of His own Son. This is not forgiveness. He did not forgive...He killed. He required blood because He delights in the scent of it.
Jesus LAID DOWN HIS OWN LIFE! He IS God, He IS the God of the Old Testament Whom you despise.
Go start your own religion.
My God DOES drip blood, from His hands and feet and side. For my sake.
Your morality is childish and inane and evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 2:49 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 3:05 PM Faith has replied

  
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