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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 271 of 478 (775958)
01-07-2016 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Hyroglyphx
01-07-2016 12:00 AM


Re: misrepresentation
I don't count Catholicism as Christianity. Constantine was the beginning of that error, and the Crusades, Inquisition, Dark Ages, al express it. None of that is Christian, and those outside the official "church" (such as the Waldensians) considered the papacy to be the Antichrist. When the Reformation came they had the same point of view. If it's the Antichrist, it's not Christian.
I don't link Christianity today with militarism, don't know where you are getting that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-07-2016 12:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by jar, posted 01-07-2016 9:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 272 of 478 (775964)
01-07-2016 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
01-07-2016 7:02 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Newthink Faith is just plain dishonesty. It's lying and lying to yourself. You may not consider the Roman Catholic Church as Christian but that does not change the fact that it is and always has been Christian. Nor have protestants been any less militant or genocidal. Even in the US Christianity was spread by force and coercion, by forcing the slaves to abandon their beliefs, by taking the Native American children away from their culture and forcing them to change their names, dress, habit and religion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 7:02 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 273 of 478 (775971)
01-07-2016 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by kbertsche
01-06-2016 11:50 PM


Re: misrepresentation
kbertsche writes:
If you were Abraham, and God told you to sacrifice your only son on top of a mountain, would you obey God or would you refuse?
I find it disturbing that you would even ask that question.
If God told me to sacrifice my child, HELL NO, I would not obey. I would refuse with extreme prejudice. Any sane human being would do the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by kbertsche, posted 01-06-2016 11:50 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2016 12:17 PM ringo has replied
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 01-07-2016 12:18 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 274 of 478 (775983)
01-07-2016 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ringo
01-07-2016 10:53 AM


Re: misrepresentation
kbertsche writes:
If you were Abraham, and God told you to sacrifice your only son on top of a mountain, would you obey God or would you refuse?
Aussie writes:
Ummm.... No. I would refuse. What about you?
ringo writes:
I find it disturbing that you would even ask that question.
If God told me to sacrifice my child, HELL NO, I would not obey. I would refuse with extreme prejudice. Any sane human being would do the same.
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step. A believer will trust and obey God. Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
What would I actually have done if I had been Abraham? I can't be sure. I hope I would have had the faith of Abraham, but I would probably have wondered very seriously whether or not I was hearing God correctly.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 01-07-2016 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 01-07-2016 12:19 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 277 by Bliyaal, posted 01-07-2016 1:01 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 279 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 1:46 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 283 by jar, posted 01-07-2016 2:25 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 01-09-2016 11:12 AM kbertsche has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 275 of 478 (775984)
01-07-2016 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ringo
01-07-2016 10:53 AM


Re: misrepresentation
kbertsche writes:
I find it disturbing that you would even ask that question.
If God told me to sacrifice my child, HELL NO, I would not obey. I would refuse with extreme prejudice. Any sane human being would do the same.
This is I agree really disturbing and it points out to a large degree the fundamentalist view.
All religion requires a view of the nature of their deity and then have a world view of how that should impact their life.
In the case of Jesus it was all about serving others, loving your enemy, self sacrifice etc. With the fundamentalist view, including an inerrant Bible, it paints a different picture of the nature of God which, although it includes the above, it has as part of the nature of God that he can be cruel to the point of requiring people at various points of time to be prepared to sacrifice your only child, to commit genocide or public stoning.
The point then is they are prepared to follow a god not because he is always good but simply because he is god. The reason that one follows a god like that is because it is their best interest to do so. In the fundamentalist case it is all about personal salvation. I realize it doesn't play out in the same way but in one sense it makes it no different than a true believers in ISIS, as you might see in a suicide bomber.
If the fundamentalists would focus on Jesus with the belief that Jesus fully represented the nature of God instead of focusing on an inerrant Bible it would a religion that is more truly Christian and less Biblian.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 01-07-2016 10:53 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 276 of 478 (775985)
01-07-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by kbertsche
01-07-2016 12:17 PM


Re: misrepresentation
kbertsche writes:
An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step.
Isn't that what the Knowledge of Good and Evil is for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2016 12:17 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 277 of 478 (775988)
01-07-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by kbertsche
01-07-2016 12:17 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step. A believer will trust and obey God. Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
Even if I was a believer, I would still prefer to spend an eternity in hell with the good guy instead of the monster you worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2016 12:17 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 1:41 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 278 of 478 (775989)
01-07-2016 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Bliyaal
01-07-2016 1:01 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step. A believer will trust and obey God. Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
Even if I was a believer, I would still prefer to spend an eternity in hell with the good guy instead of the monster you worship.
Just wondering if you could bring yourself to try to see Abraham's obedience the way believers have seen it for many millennia: as a noble act of faith in the the one true trustworthy good God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Bliyaal, posted 01-07-2016 1:01 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Bliyaal, posted 01-07-2016 2:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 279 of 478 (775992)
01-07-2016 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by kbertsche
01-07-2016 12:17 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi kbertsche,
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step.
This is a massive difference between us, I completely agree. The difference is that we non-believers roundly and loudly denounce genocide and the killing of children. Please note it is you gentle, loving Christians saying that in certain cases, it is good and right to slaughter babies because of their parents' religion. There is a yawning moral chasm between us.
Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
The unending Scriptural theme of killing good things, of a God that delights at the scent of blood, especially innocent blood is utterly abhorrent. What this God does to you is merciless. Please note you are good people forced to acknowledge that the slaughter of babies is good. Delight in the death of the innocent...being pleased at the shedding of innocent blood is evil. Please stop pretending you have the moral high ground. You have no moral credibility.
I can't be sure. I hope I would have had the faith of Abraham, but I would probably have wondered very seriously whether or not I was hearing God correctly.
You hope you would try to kill your child.
What. The. F%$#.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2016 12:17 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 1:58 PM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 280 of 478 (775993)
01-07-2016 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Aussie
01-07-2016 1:46 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step.
This is a massive difference between us, I completely agree. The difference is that we non-believers roundly and loudly denounce genocide and the killing of children. Please note it is you gentle, loving Christians saying that in certain cases, it is good and right to slaughter babies because of their parents' religion. There is a yawning moral chasm between us.
Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
The unending Scriptural theme of killing good things, of a God that delights at the scent of blood, especially innocent blood is utterly abhorrent. What this God does to you is merciless. Please note you are good people forced to acknowledge that the slaughter of babies is good. Delight in the death of the innocent...being pleased at the shedding of innocent blood is evil. Please stop pretending you have the moral high ground. You have no moral credibility.
I can't be sure. I hope I would have had the faith of Abraham, but I would probably have wondered very seriously whether or not I was hearing God correctly.
You hope you would try to kill your child.
I just asked Bliyaal if he could possibly consider his opinion from the other side, and I'd like to ask you the same: is it possible for you to see al this "scent of blood" accusation of God and moral depravity of Christians as Christians actually see it? Can you put it into words?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 1:46 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 2:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 281 of 478 (775994)
01-07-2016 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
01-07-2016 1:58 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi again Faith,
I just asked Bliyaal if he could possibly consider his opinion from the other side, and I'd like to ask you the same: is it possible for you to see al this "scent of blood" accusation of God and moral depravity of Christians as Christians actually see it? Can you put it into words?
God asking Abraham to sacrifice his Son in Issac was both a test of Abraham's trust in the faithfulness of God's word, and also a foreshadowing or type of God's own willingness to sacrifice His Son on the Altar of Calvary a few thousand year's hence. The angel of the Lord stopped him as the knife was about to plunge into Isaac, and the ram caught in the thicket was substituted for the life of Isaac just as later God the Father planned to substitute our death for the death of Christ in the Atonement. I typed this in two minutes without looking anything up. How did I do for a cursory overview? What am I missing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 1:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 2:18 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 2:32 PM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 282 of 478 (775995)
01-07-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Aussie
01-07-2016 2:11 PM


Re: misrepresentation
You did fine. How you can turn that good into evil is of course the next question but I'm not really asking it as I'm sure it will just be the usual. But thanks for the answer to my question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 2:11 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 2:28 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 478 (775996)
01-07-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by kbertsche
01-07-2016 12:17 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step. A believer will trust and obey God. Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
Not exactly. As a believer I am charged to actively question God when God is behaving immorally. A God the issues an immoral commandment is a God that must be challenged and opposed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2016 12:17 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 284 of 478 (775998)
01-07-2016 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
01-07-2016 2:18 PM


Re: misrepresentation
How you can turn that good into evil is of course the next question...
Because killing the innocent instead of the guilty is morally bankrupt.
Because genocide of an entire population because of religious differences is moral bankruptcy.
Because killing children and babies over their parents' religion is moral bankruptcy.
Because demanding that a parent slaughters their own child is moral bankruptcy.
Because publicly approving the slaughter of children and babies is moral bankruptcy.
Because hoping you would have the faith to try and kill your kid is moral bankruptcy.
Because requiring copious quantities of agony and bloodshed is the exact opposite of "Forgiveness."
God could have forgiven. He chose instead to kill.
And kill He did, by the hundreds of thousands.
Edited by Aussie, : Added quote...

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 2:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 3:03 PM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 285 of 478 (775999)
01-07-2016 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Aussie
01-07-2016 2:11 PM


Re: misrepresentation
I missed something I want to correct, reading too fast:
The angel of the Lord stopped him as the knife was about to plunge into Isaac, and the ram caught in the thicket was substituted for the life of Isaac just as later God the Father planned to substitute our death for the death of Christ in the Atonement. I typed this in two minutes without looking anything up. How did I do for a cursory overview? What am I missing?
The ram in the thicket represents Christ who was the ultimate substitute for Isaac, since the death of Isaac couldn't accomplish anything, just as all the human sacrifices various religions have offered couldn't pay for our sins. Abraham's willingness does prefigure God's willingness to sacrifice His Son, and counts for his personal faithfulness to God, as you said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 2:11 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Aussie, posted 01-07-2016 2:35 PM Faith has replied

  
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