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Author | Topic: 2014 was hotter than 1998. 2015 data in yet? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Nothing beats solar. If you're really talking about the supply of energy, lots of things beat solar: coal, oil, hydro, a horse on a treadmill. Love your enemies!
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2
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Enough energy reaches the earth from the sun in 1 hour to supply all our current energy "needs" that we currently use. It should be pointed out the much of the world is still developing, so current "needs" represent an inadequate state of development.
Maryland has 10,000 square miles. It would only take a few square miles of solar panels (on top of roofs) to fuel the energy needs of the entre state. Here is the summer 2014 worldwide situation as shown by Al Gore
quote: So your claim that
quote: is just a bunch of hot air devoid of reality.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Time for some citations.
Love your enemies!
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2
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I would like for RAZD to do the best he/she can to show us his/her energy bill for each year before and after his $15,000 investment. It is going to be complicated because he/she said something about needing to change over his/her water from gas to electric, which will enable him/her to use the energy produced by his/her solar panel.
We can calculate when he/she will "break even". (And don't forget the macro-economics! The much promoted - via massive self-serving propaganda & buying-up of politicians - fossil fuels are part of an enterprising industry which prefers limits to production to keep energy prices up. RAZD said that his solar panels help to reduce REDUCE REDUCE the bill for his neighbors because solar is part of an industry that wants prices to keep on getting lower - in fact, they always do. The macro-economics leads to current utility bills - presently using fossil-fuel based energy - falling at least in half over time ONLY WHEN REPLACED WITH SOLAR as the Howie Hawkins New York plan shows. Macro-economical argument also looks at the economic growth that we get when energy prices are halfed) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Me go for citations?
You can't be that dense. I want evidence from you to back up your claims about solar's amazing capabilities. Love your enemies!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Me go for citations? Curiously I think you both need to provide citations to objectively review this argument:
Nothing beats solar. If you're really talking about the supply of energy, lots of things beat solar: coal, oil, hydro, a horse on a treadmill. Especially the horse on a treadmill bit ... (a little hyperbole perhaps?) Personally I think LamarkNewAge is right in the long view, and that in the short view the costs are fairly balanced. And I've put my money where my mouth is. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Jon Inactive Member |
We'll see where we can go with this.
I've posted on this topic elsewhere and can start by giving some links to those posts later tonight. Love your enemies!
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I have an October 2015 Consumer Reports which shows how consumers have saved $2,500 per year on more efficient appliances(in 2015 $) since Carter made it a priority in 1977. It was what Al Gore was referring to, early in his long RS piece, as a 50% reduction in total "energy intensity" since 1980. But the same October CR article tells how large utility companies that want to charge a "fixed rate" to consumers, because utilities can't stand that consumers efficiency is eating into profits. The "utility death spiral". I will get around to quoting it in a while (cant be accessed online). There are some related solar-panel issues I will quote as well.
Here is a Forbes article on the issue, and it centers around "net metering". It is mostly pro-net metering Net Energy Metering -- Are We Capitalists Or What? Here is an anti net-metering articleThe Hole in the Rooftop Solar-Panel Craze - WSJ (if link doesn't allow you to read text then put "the hole in the rooftop solar panel craze wall street journal" into google .) Here is a quote from the informative article which has a hyper link to a pro-solar academic study
quote:The article has hyper-links Here is a google link leading to lots of (somewhat negative)WSJ articles on solar. Including that one above Google The Stanford professor, Mark Jacobson, is a respected & leading scientist. He recently had a big study showing the economic value in building hundreds of thousands of huge windmills along the gulf coast, because they will reduce a category 3 hurricane down to category 1, and a category 5 down to a category 3. He peer-reviewed the Howie Hawkins energy plan. There is a hyper-link to a Stanford PDF in this link (below). Ill quote the paragraph where the hyper-link is. What's Wrong With Cuomo's Energy Plan? - CounterPunch.org
quote: The main thrust of my argument (which will become more clear when I type in the Consumer Reports text) will be that the solar industry seems to prefer lower prices for its product while the other industries consider it a major calamity when prices drop. Solar looks like the future, from a pro-growth economic standpoint. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The article mentions the "utility death spiral" and utilities charging fixed rates to punish more-efficient users. The best price per watt deals are given to those who use the most electricity! This issue doesn't even touch on solar issues and "net metering". Consumer Reports has a petition on p. 43 to fight the fixed rate increases of utilities. Right wing radio has been extremely critical of "charging consumers upfront for more expensive appliances" and LED bulbs. They wont mention the macro-economic benefits (lower utility prices FOR EVERYBODY that should come from lower demand) because utility companies simply get upset at lost profits and thus raise prices to compensate. Very upset. So don't expect right-wing radio shows to praise the reductions in energy intensity, because the hosts support an economic model (for-profit utility companies) that prefers higher prices for energy(contrary to their oft-repeated claims). Below is a solar article.
quote: The sad part is the paltry 1% electrical generating capacity. Imagine the macro-economic benefits if it were 10% or 50%. I don't imagine right-wing talk radio will mention this (potential)macro-economical benefit. RAZD said his efficiency caused prices to lower for everybody where he lives. He explained why. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Google
quote: Not good for the U.S. energy producers. Russia uses conventional natural gas (the type we can get helium from) which is much cheaper to produce than U.S. un-conventional. They used to say that our unconventionalnatural gas fields couldn't last with market prices under $50 a for barrel of oil. Especially not good for tar sludge producers (for now anyway)Slippery Truths: What The Data Says About The Keystone XL Pipeline There is a floor as to how far down the prices can go in our gas-fired plants. Solar doesn't really have a floor. Infact, if all investments in new power plants were required by law to be ONLY solar (SOLA SOLIS?), then that would lower solar prices quite a lot simply by adding to the profit margin of solar sellers and enabling the product to be sold a fair ways cheaper (it would also enable the same dynamic to apply all the way down the supply chain of each and every component). Solar costs are upfront too, and the "price parity" issues understates their long-term value. This doesn't even take into account that technological innovations will offer the most room for future price drops in solar technology verses fossil fuels. Then the macro economics demand that we look at the solar issue dynamics. Solar actually reduces demand and that enables the price of fossil fuels to look cheaper on paper but the reduced cost is only because solar-use reduces demand (thus prices per barrel). Solar isn't simply a "green dream". It is a technology that can produce an economic miracle. But we need competent managers of the economy because market forces are myopic and not so-efficient. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: You seem to take a "let's sit back and see" approach when you casually say "the costs are fairly balanced". Gee lets just watch the market play itself out for 50 years so solar can slowly grow from 1% up to 5%. The subsidies are tax credits which lower income people cant even use. It's like the $100 billion per year mortgage interest deduction (except the artificial jacking up of property values is the biggest scam going and the worst disaster ever for our nations productivity). "Lets pop the corn, kick back and relax. Watch the show, spectators!" "Watch the great extinction of the ocean species!" "Enjoy watching the oceans fiz up like a can of fresh cold soda!" "Enjoy the canned jellyfish, can't say I have any sardines to offer" At least you could propose that the government gives a $5000 little "sun beam" panel for everybody if they have this wonderful $5000 income tax credit. (sorry I'm thinking of the 1970s "Governor moon beam" issue when Jerry Brown's musings were so far ahead of his time. Now his proposals seem behind the required call of action today). Anyway what state are you from exactly? What is the time that you would say the panels pay for themselves? Don't factor in interest loans and subsidies. Factor in "net metering" though. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
You're talking about costs to folks who have managed successful installations of solar panels.
What I'm more interested in are claims such as: "Maryland has 10,000 square miles. It would only take a few square miles of solar panels (on top of roofs) to fuel the energy needs of the entre state." or that solar "is a technology that can produce an economic miracle." Those are some pretty hefty claims and they require some pretty hefty evidence. Love your enemies!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
... that solar "is a technology that can produce an economic miracle." Those are some pretty hefty claims and they require some pretty hefty evidence. I suppose we could try it and see what happens. We could run an experiment. Fund more efficient solar technologies, panel every roof and every billboard and see if that impacts our energy budget in any substantial way. Any guesses what would happen? Other than the political hollering and gnashing of teeth by big oil, of course.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: I meant that if you place every panel into several square miles (with nothing but panels filling in the space), then it produces energy needed. (although that wouldn't be practical in that way because of energy looses through wire distances traveled) Solar is a technology that always gets cheaper and not in a "predatory" way (like Saudi Arabia increasing production only to crush shale - see my Guardian link above) where the price will jack back up. Right wing radio keeps on saying "Those environmental leftists just want to control your life. They want all this expensive energy just to enslave you". It is the fossil fuel industry that has a fit when supply & demand doesn't match up with their preferred manipulations. Look at the price per barrel of oil from 1 year to the next. It's insane. Ands it is 100% manipulation. Look at it THIS way. Lets say we have 2 options. 1: Pass a law that requires all power plants have to be natural gas. or 2: Pass a law that requires all power plants have to be solar. If you do the natural gas option, then the demand will shoot up the price over $100 per barrel or much more than it is today (and more than the nationwide cost of solar-powered plants currently). But the solar option will see prices drop for solar-powered plants from the present. (and it will free up natural gas to be used something OTHER THAN gas-fired power plants which will increase supply and decrease fossil fuel prices) That doesn't mean solar won't become predatory some day (say 2 decades from now), and we really need to have a total re-think of this big business model for economically vital utilities, but presently the fossil fuels have seen us get screwed, and much of it is just the nature of limited resources. All resources are by definition limited, but solar seems to be much more stable. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Fund more efficient solar technologies, panel every roof and every billboard and see if that impacts our energy budget in any substantial way. Any guesses what would happen? We could end up blowing billions of dollars that could have gone to something more productive. "Do it and see what happens" is usually not the best approach.Love your enemies!
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