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Author Topic:   Is the future inevitable?
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 64 of 109 (774354)
12-16-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Stile
12-16-2015 1:51 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
I don't go for either of those alternatives. I just say that if our world is predetermined, I can't change the outcome. If I can't change the outcome, i do not have choice - all I have is the appearance choice.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Stile, posted 12-16-2015 1:51 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by 1.61803, posted 12-16-2015 3:53 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 68 by caffeine, posted 12-16-2015 3:59 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 9:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 109 (774362)
12-16-2015 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by caffeine
12-16-2015 3:59 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
caffeine writes:
there's two options available:
How do you arrive ar that position?
Your actions are predictable based on past events, and therefore pre-determined, which you consider incompatible with free will.
2. Your actions are not predictable based on past events, and therefore random and arbitrary. Random behaviour means living by the flip of a metaphorical coin - there's still no room for free will.
3. Your actions sometimes predictable based on....whatever ... sometimes not.
4. Your actions even when upredictable are not random or arbitrary.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by caffeine, posted 12-16-2015 3:59 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by caffeine, posted 12-16-2015 4:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 72 of 109 (774368)
12-16-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by 1.61803
12-16-2015 3:53 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
1.6 etc writes:
Kind of humbling that from the big bang, the formation of the universe stars, galaxies, planets;to the formation of Earth, life and man.... and every conceivable event thereafter that has resulted in you posting that
That's not all. I put up a Christmas tree, and you know, I really didn't have to. I could have done it tomorrow, or not at all. I could have played the Dice Man game and left it to chance. But instead I did it today - despite my wife asking for it last week. It was predictable that it would happen, but a betting man would would have put money on the first Saturday in December. It's all a bit silly isn't it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by 1.61803, posted 12-16-2015 3:53 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 109 (774407)
12-17-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Stile
12-17-2015 9:35 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Stile writes:
I'm just saying that if you want to call "the ability to make conscious decisions about your future actions based on your own personal past experience" an "appearance of choice" than I don't care. I can still make conscious decisions about my future actions based on my own personal past experience... and it doesn't matter if it's determined or not.
I just don't think it's necessary to add the qualifiers 'past experience' - if you can't make decisions based on anything at all that will change a predetermined outcome then you don't have free choice.
But, as you say, it doesn't matter if we don't know any better. Except, of course, the entire concept of sin is then defunct - for those that believe in that stuff.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 9:35 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 12:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 77 of 109 (774410)
12-17-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Stile
12-17-2015 12:14 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Stile writes:
But does "A" actually show that anything is "predetermined?" Or does it just show that we can make accurate predictions?
I don't think there is anyway of proving we don't live in a determinate world. The closest I can get to it is to say that if randomness exists in it, then a world can not be determinate.
But we wouldn't know any different because, well we wouldn't know any different.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 12:14 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 3:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 109 (774428)
12-17-2015 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Stile
12-17-2015 3:11 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Style writes:
Where do we go from there?
Buggered if I know. I don't have a lot of time for word arguments - which is what these things always resolve into - and I don't have the maths necessary to take it elswhere.
I do think that there's two crucial points though.
1. We know that we have freedom of choice because we excercise it everyday. But we can't ever know if there's a ghost in the machine or a grand puppet master - but, you know, what are the odds? We know that life on earth evolved in a hap-hazard way and we're just part of that process - if there isn't randomness and choas in a few billions of years of evolution the words don't have meaning.
2. If there is true randomness in our world then I say it can't be deterministic. We know in our own mind that we can make our own decisions but if we can't trust that we can play the Dice Man game and base our decisions on pure probability. I don't see how you can get round that without claiming that even probability can be pre-determined. That's too false a word game for me. At that point I just shrug really.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 3:11 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 83 of 109 (774602)
12-19-2015 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dogmafood
12-19-2015 8:49 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
You really can't have it both ways, either something is random or it's determinate. If you make the words mean the same, there's nothing to discuss.
Consider the alternative to a deterministic universe. What kind of free will would we posses if kittens did randomly appear in lottery ball machines? How could we possibly make choices if we had no idea how events would play out? Uncertainty is one thing but complete uncertainty is another.
I think you're mixing up random and arbitrary. Randomness is bounded - a dice has 6 sides not 6 sides and a kitten..

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Dogmafood, posted 12-19-2015 8:49 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Dogmafood, posted 12-19-2015 7:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 86 of 109 (774639)
12-20-2015 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dogmafood
12-19-2015 7:10 PM


Re: Random nature of paradoxical popsicles
PT writes:
Everyone would agree with describing the results of a fair dice throw as random. How many would agree that the results are not strictly determined by the laws of physics?
We all agree that. That's why a dice can't roll a kitten - randomness is bounded by its physical state.
You won't get the result of a kitten without the cause of one being on the die. We know that the universe works this way all the way down as far as we can see.
So we agree that we can dump the kitten then ;-)
There is no question that we have agency and can make things happen of our own volition. There is not much doubt that our volition is caused by our physical state. The question is what is the nature of free will and where does it come from. Its a paradox and so there is lots to discuss.
If we have true agency - ie we can do things without then being pre-determined - then we live in a non-determinate world. We all think we can, and if I doubt it I can roll my dice. If you don't accept that a dice roll is random I'll gamble with photons..
If, on the other hand, you try to predict something like the moment that a radioactive atom will radioact, then you’ll find yourself at the corner of Poo Creek and No. Einstein and many others believed that the randomness of things like radioactive decay, photons going through polarizers, and other bizarre quantum effects could be explained and predicted if only we knew the hidden variables involved. Not surprisingly, this became known as hidden variable theory, and it turns out to be wrong.
Q: Do physicists really believe in true randomness? | Ask a Mathematician / Ask a Physicist

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dogmafood, posted 12-19-2015 7:10 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Dogmafood, posted 12-23-2015 10:31 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 89 of 109 (774822)
12-23-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dogmafood
12-23-2015 10:31 AM


Re: Determinism and the Self
PT writes:
We perceive some events to be random, like a throw of the dice, and yet they are intricately determined by the events that preceded them.
A throw of the dice IS random. If you must take the extreme position that the result of my dice throw can be known before I throw it (because of perfect knowledge of all physical states) I'll use a photon instead of a dice - which is not affected by such conditions.
This does not destroy the self.
But it does! It means I'm not able to make free choices - the decisions have already been made for me by historical cause and effect.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Dogmafood, posted 12-23-2015 10:31 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 95 of 109 (776364)
01-12-2016 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 12:28 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:
According to the current physics it is not deterministic.
If you put a human consciousness into the equation, it can't be deterministic because I can screw with it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 12:28 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 2:40 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 2:52 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 103 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 4:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 98 of 109 (776369)
01-12-2016 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 2:40 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:
Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain.
Suppose I said I'll press this button if that photon goes through the polarizer to the left but I won't if it goes to the right?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 2:40 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 3:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 100 of 109 (776376)
01-12-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by PaulK
01-12-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Quantum Events
PaulK writes:
How would doing that be different from wiring up a detector to trigger the button if the photon goes to the left,but not on the right ? How does human consciousness make a difference ?
Both acts require human consciousness. Doesn't matter whether the machine I built pulls the trigger based on my programming, or me directly.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 3:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 4:16 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 102 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 4:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 104 of 109 (776382)
01-12-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by PaulK
01-12-2016 4:16 PM


Re: Quantum Events
PaulK writes:
That's not exactly a convincing argument for the idea that human consciousness goes against determinism
It's traditional to show your workings :-)
But in any case I only have to give a single instance of how determinism can be broken for determinism to be broken. Something is either deterministic or it ain't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 4:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 4:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 106 of 109 (776387)
01-12-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by 1.61803
01-12-2016 4:32 PM


Re: Quantum Events
1.6 etc writes:
Tangle, he said not deterministic.
I know, I am agreeing with him (not that I could disagree with his physics) but NoNukes appears to be making distinctions between stuff at quantum level - which we all agree appears to be prperly random - and stuff at a macro level. I'm giving an example how a macro sized lump of stuff - me - could use quantum level randomness to create a non-deterministic outcome.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 4:32 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 5:23 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 107 of 109 (776389)
01-12-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 4:26 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:
Let us say an atom etc
Well, I'd say so.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 4:26 PM Son Goku has not replied

  
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