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Author Topic:   Is the future inevitable?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4413
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 106 of 109 (776387)
01-12-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by 1.61803
01-12-2016 4:32 PM


Re: Quantum Events
1.6 etc writes:

Tangle, he said not deterministic.

I know, I am agreeing with him (not that I could disagree with his physics) but NoNukes appears to be making distinctions between stuff at quantum level - which we all agree appears to be prperly random - and stuff at a macro level. I'm giving an example how a macro sized lump of stuff - me - could use quantum level randomness to create a non-deterministic outcome.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 4:32 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 5:23 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4413
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 107 of 109 (776389)
01-12-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 4:26 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:

Let us say an atom etc

Well, I'd say so.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 4:26 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1059
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 108 of 109 (776402)
01-12-2016 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
01-12-2016 4:50 PM


Re: Quantum Events
I know, I am agreeing with him (not that I could disagree with his physics) but NoNukes appears to be making distinctions between stuff at quantum level - which we all agree appears to be prperly random - and stuff at a macro level. I'm giving an example how a macro sized lump of stuff - me - could use quantum level randomness to create a non-deterministic outcome.

Ah, I see, you are talking about bootstrapping indeterminism up to the macro scale by making a classical object's next state depend on a quantum event. In which case, certainly yes macroscopic objects can be made indeterminate in this sense.

In fact such issues (how quantum indeterminism propagates up to the classical world) is the "real" point of Schrodinger's cat.


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 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15496
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 109 of 109 (776428)
01-13-2016 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 2:40 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:

Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain.

In an indeterministic universe, aren't final outcomes only incompletely specified by initial conditions, whether a human or an electron sent toward two slits?

AbE: Just saw Son Goku's Message 108. I believe I just made the same point. Quantum effects easily influence the macro level, obvious examples begin Schrdinger's cat and an experimenter writing up the results of a two slit experiment. In those cases we know the macro level outcomes of quantum influences. The human mind must be continuously influenced by those same quantum influences, but we just have no data telling us the specific quantum events and macro outcomes.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Edited by Percy, : AbE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 2:40 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

    
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