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Author Topic:   2014 was hotter than 1998. 2015 data in yet?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 91 of 357 (776465)
01-13-2016 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jon
01-12-2016 12:17 PM


Re: What's stopping Texas?
It's not just about finding instances where it's cheaper. It's about showinging that it's scalable. That's what my inquiries into your claims about Maryland meeting all its energy needs with just a few square miles of solar panels have been getting at.
To go for a moment back to the example of steam technology, Newcomen's invention was perhaps more efficient (and effective) than alternatives, but its outrageous use of coal made it impracticable as a power source pretty much anywhere other than at a coal mine.
Its benefits at the coal mine disappeared once away from the mine. It was limited in where and how it could be used and was thus not scalable.
I think there are similar obstacles facing solar.
Because unless someone can figure out some way of transporting electricity, solar power will only ever be economical for people living near sun mines. It's not like photons magically fall out of the sky or something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 01-12-2016 12:17 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Jon, posted 01-13-2016 9:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 357 (776470)
01-13-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dr Adequate
01-13-2016 8:01 PM


Re: What's stopping Texas?
I'm not sure what's with the wise-ass routine.
It really isn't possible to transport electricity very long distances.
It really is the case that sunlight is unreliable and many places get very little.
The kind of solar power that works in the Nevada desert doesn't work in the woods of northern Minnesota.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-13-2016 8:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-13-2016 9:21 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 357 (776471)
01-13-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by LamarkNewAge
01-13-2016 7:16 PM


Re: You can explain yourself for once.
Yes.
That's what I said.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-13-2016 7:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-13-2016 9:12 PM Jon has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 94 of 357 (776472)
01-13-2016 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Jon
01-13-2016 9:07 PM


Go ahead then.
Go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 01-13-2016 9:07 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 95 of 357 (776473)
01-13-2016 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Jon
01-13-2016 9:07 PM


Re: What's stopping Texas?
Yeah. As Fox News famously explained to us, solar power only really works in sun-drenched countries such as Germany. As for transporting electricity, I guess that will always remain an impossible dream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Jon, posted 01-13-2016 9:07 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-13-2016 10:11 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 357 (776474)
01-13-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by LamarkNewAge
01-13-2016 9:12 PM


Re: Go ahead then.
So you have no interest in actually backing up the propaganda you've been spraying about?
Figures...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-13-2016 9:12 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 357 (776475)
01-13-2016 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Dr Adequate
01-13-2016 9:21 PM


Re: What's stopping Texas?
quote:
Wikipedia on Solar Power in Germany:
Solar power in Germany consists almost exclusively of photovoltaics (PV) and accounted for an estimated 6.2 to 6.9 percent of the country's net-electricity generation in 2014. The country has been the world's top PV installer for several years and still leads in terms of the overall installed capacity...
The world's top installer still gets less than a tenth of its power from solar cells - and that's just averaged out over given periods of time; just like Columbia, Maryland, Germany sells off its power on the European grid when it's making a lot and does what everyone else who needs reliable power does when the cells aren't producing: burns fossil fuels.
quote:
Wikipedia on Electric Power Transmission:
Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.6% in 1997[14] and 6.5% in 2007.
Germany's solar capacity couldn't even make up half of what goes up into the air as transmission loss in the U.S.
So yeah, we should do what Germany does and send some solar-generated electricity into the air...
Now please... no more. My sides are starting to hurt.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-13-2016 9:21 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 98 of 357 (776480)
01-14-2016 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Jon
01-13-2016 10:11 PM


Re: What's stopping Texas?
Jon writes:
The world's top installer still gets less than a tenth of its power from solar cells - and that's just averaged out over given periods of time; just like Columbia, Maryland, Germany sells off its power on the European grid when it's making a lot and does what everyone else who needs reliable power does when the cells aren't producing: burns fossil fuels.
Actually, they are a net exporter of energy. However, they export power when times are good in summer when the demand for electricity drops; but in the middle of winter they import a lot of power from France. Nuclear. In the midst of their winter they also import a lot of power from Poland. Fossil Fuels. Coal.
So, it seems that on peak demand, they also fall back on fossil fuels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-13-2016 10:11 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-14-2016 11:01 PM Pressie has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 99 of 357 (776514)
01-14-2016 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Pressie
01-14-2016 8:26 AM


Understand something about Germany.
Germany made a ton of purchases when the price for solar was super-duper expensive. I'll post an example of just how much cheaper solar has gotten. So people can see how much more solar one can get for the same amount of money Germany has spent.
And Germany gets literally 500% more solar power on a clear day (though they are rare)than the average day.
When looking at the United States, compared to what Germany has gotten, the average dollar spent in 2016 on solar will easily get 10 times the amount of electricity on average.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Pressie, posted 01-14-2016 8:26 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 100 of 357 (776515)
01-14-2016 11:13 PM


Here is an example of price drops.
quote:
July 30, 2015, 5:43 PM
Orlando's electricity provider struck a deal this week for solar energy that will cost less than energy from the utility's coal and natural-gas plants.
"We really are at a tipping point where solar is the least-cost option," said Tom Hunton, president and CEO of American Capital Energy, which will build, own and manage the plant for Orlando Utilities Commission.
....
The new plant will rise from a pair of treeless tracts covering 31 acres in east Orange County at Curtis Stanton Energy Center.
....
In all, nearly 42,000 solar panels will be erected and by early next year will pump up to 13 megawatts, or enough electricity into OUC's grid to power about 1,500 homes.
....
The plant's large size will result in a lower cost per panel than what a homeowner might be able to purchase for a rooftop system.
The reduced-cost predicted milestone for solar power, occurring unevenly across the nation because of varying electricity rates, reflects tumbling prices for solar panels and related hardware.
A standard panel puts out 310 watts today compared with 265 watts about five years ago. Also part of the equation, panels cost less than 80 cents per watt today and about $2 per watt five years ago. The industry expects continued declines in cost.
The resulting numbers are telling: OUC will pay 7 cents per kilowatt-hour of electricity from the new solar plant, which is a steep drop from the 19 cents per kilowatt-hour from a solar plant built for OUC less than four years ago.
It costs OUC 8 cents per kilowatt-hour to generate electricity by burning coal and natural gas. In turn, the utility charges its more than 200,000 residential customers at least 10 cents per kilowatt-hour.
A kilowatt-hour is enough power to turn on 10, 100-watt bulbs for an hour.
"Alternative energy is always alternative energy until it's cheaper than the cheapest energy," said Jim Fenton, Florida Solar Energy Center director. "Now solar is cheaper than coal."
Mark 9 KJV - And he said unto them, Verily I say - Bible Gateway
19 cents per kilowatt hour LESS THAN FOUR YEARS AGO.
7 cents per kilowatt hour in 2015.
Cheaper than coal and gas today, over twice as expensive back in early 2012.
Texas is 9% of the U.S. population, Florida is about 7%. That's at least 1 in 6 people who live in states where coal and gas seem to be the same utility-scale price as solar. (and it understates the long-term value, decades later, as solar will be producing energy past the time measures/financing contracts used for calculating the initial utility-rate prices)

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 101 of 357 (776672)
01-18-2016 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Jon
01-11-2016 10:52 PM


Re: Reality sucks for those that don't accept it.
You're missing my point.
And you're missing mine.
There will always be droughts, man made or otherwise. ...
The point is that the changes in climate result in more extremes: bigger storms and bigger droughts. The one in Syria was the worst on record, and the aquifer was pumped dry.
... Cheap, reliable, and plentiful energy has been the best way to mitigate their effects - not stopping our civilizations dead in their tracks.
You can't magically create water to 'alleviate a drought'. What you can do is use cheap, reliable, and plentiful energy to grow food elsewhere, and use that same cheap, reliable, and plentiful energy to transport that food where the drought is so it doesn't turn into a famine - as droughts always have before humans started using fossil fuels to provide themselves with cheap, reliable, and plentiful energy.
And that didn't help Syria, where their civilization collapsed when the farms collapsed from the drought. The only way plentiful energy has mitigated the effects are (1) the military conflicts throwing megatons of plentiful energy at each other, fighting over dry land, and (2) the refugee crisis in Europe, moving millions of refugees thousands of miles to try living in another country.
And so far, only fossil fuels have been shown capable of providing this cheap, reliable, and plentiful energy. I've opened numerous doors for you and others to walk through and show your evidence that renewables could instead provide this cheap, reliable, and plentiful energy. Yet not once has any effort been made to demonstrate this.
The evidence is there. I think LamarkNewAge has done a good job presenting it. When you have utilities installing solar power rather than new gas or coal fired plants, that is because the return on investment is better, and this is happening across the planet, even in Arabian countries. The tar sands are closing because they are more expensive. Coal is shutting down because it is more expensive.
I WANT CLEAN, LOW-COST, LESS-RISKY ENERGY! But I also want energy that is affordable, reliable, and in good supply because that is what makes my life so damn good and will continue to make all of our lives so damn good.
Until then I'm going to stick my money where the energy is.
Then get a solar array and invest in the future of energy. Panels today are more efficient and cheaper than they were last year, and this trend will continue. I expect my panels to be obsolete in 5 to 10 years as progress continues to improve.
But you don't have to take my word for it: get a quote.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Jon, posted 01-11-2016 10:52 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 102 of 357 (776675)
01-18-2016 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jon
01-12-2016 12:17 PM


Re: What's stopping Texas? Politics.
It's not just about finding instances where it's cheaper. It's about showinging that it's scalable. That's what my inquiries into your claims about Maryland meeting all its energy needs with just a few square miles of solar panels have been getting at.
Now you are moving the goalposts. You asked for evidence that it is cheaper, and it appears that you accept the information you have been given, so now you want to know how to make it work on a larger scale.
The easy way to scale it is to create large areas dedicated to solar (or wind, etc), but is that really what is the best way -- to just replace coal and gas plants with solar plants?
Or is the best way to put solar panels near where the energy is consumed and cut down on the cost of transmission while also making the grid a web that balances supply and demand locally?
For instance I have not had an electric bill since August because energy is flowing to and from my place depending on usage, when before it all came over the grid.
My town has a lot of buildings that could also have solar panels installed and have the same net zero production of electricity, and the electrical use by the town is almost entirely during the peak daytime usage, when solar is producing its peak output.
A new production company in town is putting panels on their roof for the same reasons. Look at the rooftop wastelands of malls, and the parking areas that could have solar panel covered parking.
What you want to do for most efficient distribution of energy is have the energy produced near where it is used, and that means integrating it into the urban landscape and NOT in large distant installations. Solar allows this in a way that fossil fuels can never compete with.
But that takes a political effort, and one we are seeing with grass roots usage of solar.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 01-12-2016 12:17 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by xongsmith, posted 01-18-2016 1:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 103 of 357 (776691)
01-18-2016 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by RAZD
01-18-2016 8:33 AM


Re: What's stopping Texas? Politics.
RAZD writes:
What you want to do for most efficient distribution of energy is have the energy produced near where it is used, and that means integrating it into the urban landscape and NOT in large distant installations. Solar allows this in a way that fossil fuels can never compete with.
Not mention a side effect of removing terrorist targets....
color emphasis mine...

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 357 (776694)
01-18-2016 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
01-18-2016 8:17 AM


Re: Reality sucks for those that don't accept it.
All you have is anecdote. The actual evidence - Columbia, Maryland, Germany, etc. - shows that solar is shit when it comes to providing the kind of energy required by advanced first-world societies.
And coal isn't losing to solar; it's losing to natural gas - a fossil fuel, in case there was any doubt.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2016 8:17 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 357 (776695)
01-18-2016 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by RAZD
01-18-2016 8:33 AM


Re: What's stopping Texas? Politics.
You asked for evidence that it is cheaper, ...
I did? Where?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2016 8:33 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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