Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 444 of 478 (776668)
01-18-2016 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by dwise1
01-18-2016 2:47 AM


Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
There was another part of your post I meant to answer:
That said, the Council of Nicea was indeed a power play. I recently had some conversations with an Iraqi Jewess who had escape Iraq decades ago (her relatives who returned to try to reclaim their properties all perished). She could not understand the process by which Judaism became Christianity.
But it didn't "become Christianity," or in any conceivable sense that it could be described that way you ought to have been able to explain it even without being a believer. She'd have to be told that the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all. Obviously you don't believe this so all you succeeded in doing was confirming the poor woman in her misunderstanding.
Sadly, I did not get very far -- I got to the point of showing that Gentiles were getting into these early churches and raising issues such as circumcision being required when we reached the locks near the Albert Docks in Liverpool and that stream was lost.
Eh? It's already odd to use the phrase "Gentiles GETTING INTO THESE early churches, when Paul clearly said he was called by God to take the good news to the Gentiles because the Jews had rejected it. "Raising issues such as circumcision being required" means what? Scripture is clear but I gather you aren't. The Jewish rituals were fulfilled in Christ, and to insist on practicing them is to reject what Christ did to save us.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by dwise1, posted 01-18-2016 2:47 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 9:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 474 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-21-2016 9:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 446 of 478 (776693)
01-18-2016 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by jar
01-18-2016 9:31 AM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
There is no need for another thread to support the two-thousand-year-old understanding of the Church on Christ in the Old Testament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 9:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 2:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 448 of 478 (776701)
01-18-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by jar
01-18-2016 2:45 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Tons of support, jar, so much the fact that you are ignorant of it shows your usual revisionist theology and history for what it is.
Just a couple of comments on the views of the early church fathers should make the point:
Here's the First Link
THE FAMOUS PHRASE OF ST. AUGUSTINE can be taken as typical of the whole Patristic attitude towards the Old Dispensation. Novum Testamentum in Vetere latet. Vetus Testamentum in Novo patet. The New Testament is an accomplishment or a consummation of the Old. Christ Jesus is the Messiah spoken of by the prophets. In Him all promises and expectations are fulfilled. The Law and the Gospel belong together.
And nobody can claim to be a true follower of Moses unless he believes that Jesus is the Lord. Any one who does not recognize in Jesus the Messiah, the Anointed of the Lord, does thereby betray the Old Dispensation itself. Only the Church of Christ keeps now the
right key to the Scriptures, the true key to the prophecies of old. Because all these prophecies are fulfilled in Christ.
St. Justin rejects the suggestion that the Old Testament is a link holding together the Church and the Synagogue. For him quite the opposite is true. All Jewish claims 32 must be formally rejected. The Old Testament no longer belongs to the Jews. It belongs to the Church alone. And the Church of Christ is therefore the only true Israel of God. The Israel of old was but an undeveloped Church. The word Scriptures itself in early Christian use meant first of all just the Old Testament and in this sense obviously this word is used in the Creed: according to the Scriptures, i.e. according to the prophecies and promises of the Old Dispensation.
288.
Augustine on Christ in the scriptures:
From what He preached to the disciples on the Road to Emmaus:
He revealed to them the meaning of the Scriptures and showed how it was necessary that the Christ should fulfil all that had been written about him in te books of the Law of Moses, in the Prophets, and in the Psalms. The Lord went through the whole Old Testament. He seemed to span it all in his embrace.
The Scriptures are in fact, in any passage you care to choose, singing of Christ, provided we have ears that are capable of picking out the tune. The Lord opened the minds of the Apostles so that they understood the Scriptures. That he will open our minds too is our prayer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 2:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 3:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 450 of 478 (776703)
01-18-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by jar
01-18-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Anyone who refers to Augustine or the other Church Fathers as con men doesn't deserve to be given a moment's regard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 3:34 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 452 of 478 (776710)
01-18-2016 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by jar
01-18-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
The early church fathers plus Kbertsche's quote from John plus a couple from Luke should be much more than enough to show how wrong you are:
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:44-46 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 3:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 8:55 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 455 of 478 (776743)
01-19-2016 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by jar
01-19-2016 8:55 AM


The point has been fully made
As pointed out above, notice no specifics are included so that the assertions could be verified.
The assertions are that the Church believes Christ was the subject of the Old Testament, and that was amply proved by the scripture quotes given by kbertsche and by me and by the quotes from the early church fathers. That is, Jesus Himself said, and the Church has believed from the earliest days, that the OT is about Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 8:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 12:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 457 by Bliyaal, posted 01-19-2016 1:47 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 458 of 478 (776749)
01-19-2016 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by jar
01-19-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
I don't doubt folk believed and tried to market such things but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not such a belief could be in anyway justified or true.
If Jesus' saying it and the Church Fathers affirming it isn't enough to verify it for you, nothing would.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 12:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 2:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 459 of 478 (776750)
01-19-2016 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Bliyaal
01-19-2016 1:47 PM


Re: The point has been fully made
True, not quite what it seems to say but the point I intended was to answer her wondering about how Christianity took over from Judaism, and the answer is that Christianity reads the Hebrew scriptures as all pointing to the Messiah Jesus. What I actually wrote doesn't make it clear that I was talking about what Christianity teaches that sets us apart from Judaism's reading of the Hebrew scriptures. You are right the statement implies more but all that was intended was this much and this much got answered. I just left out the subject I had in mind, which should be inserted into the original statement as follows:
She'd have to be told that CHRISTIANITY TEACHES THAT the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all.
I wasn't intending to invite a debate on the truth of the Church's beliefs, with her or with anyone here, I just wanted to answer her question.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Bliyaal, posted 01-19-2016 1:47 PM Bliyaal has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 461 of 478 (776759)
01-19-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by jar
01-19-2016 2:22 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
Actually Faith, what would satisfy me would be ANY evidence that it was true but as been shown here at EvC repeatedly not one single Old Testament verse can be shown to relate to Jesus.
Funny then that millions of us believe hundreds of them do, and with Jesus and Augustine and other church fathers affirming it we have pretty good evidence I'd say. Possibly a matter of having the ears to hear?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 2:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 9:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 466 of 478 (776772)
01-19-2016 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
01-19-2016 9:07 PM


Evidence in links at Jews for Jesus, plus edit added for clarification
Many people accept unsupported assertions without question. In fact that is the whole base of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
They are not unsupported at all, they have been defended by many able theologians down the centuries. You don't accept the arguments but millions of us do; there is nothing unsupported about them.
Here, try a page of links to arguments on the subject from Jews for Jesus.
Here's one of the links: "365 Prophecies" . I'm sure you dismiss all of them if only on the basis that they aren't direct prophetic statements. Nevertheless the Church down the centuries has regarded them as prophecies, fools that we are, because the New Testament treats them as prophecies.
ABE 1/20/16: A few posts down Admin emphasizes that bare links are not acceptable, which I think refers to this post. In this case I have to point out that links are the whole thing here. The page of "365 Prophecies" is a list of quotes of that many Old Testament references as links, followed by the New Testament fulfillments, as links, as follows:
Tanach Reference Prophecy Fullfilment
Genesis 3:15 Seed of a woman (virgin birth) Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20
Genesis 3:15 He will bruise Satan's head Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8
Genesis 5:24 The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated Mark 6:19
Genesis 9:26-27 The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem. Luke 3:36
Genesis 12:3 As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations Acts 3:25,26
Genesis 12:7 The Promise made to Abraham's Seed Galatians 3:16
Genesis 14:18 A priest after Melchizedek Hebrews 6:20
Genesis 14:18 A King also Hebrews 7:2
Genesis 14:18 The Last Supper foreshadowed Matthew 26:26-29
Genesis 17:19 The Seed of Isaac Romans. 9:7
Etc.
The point is to illustrate the hundreds of references in the OT treated as prophecies in the New Testament. You have to read the links to get the message, there's nothing much I could add in my own words to make it any clearer.
Also, I keep emphasizing the millions of believers in these things because jar's point of view is so far from what Christianity teaches, even possibly unique to him since I've never heard of half of what he says except from him, it seems important to point out that there is a traditional standard body of understanding held by a great number of believers down the centuries, just in case some readers don't know enough about these things to realize how completely jar's opinions are his own and represent no known branch of Christianity. GDR's beliefs are also far from the main line of traditional Christian understanding, but he does at least have a modern source of his opinions in N T Wright. Still a revisionist, still not in the main line of Christian thought. I think these simple statistics do say something substantial about the topic.
I referred to the views of the early "church fathers" as evidence earlier. Perhaps should have repeated this since it's what I had in mind when I mentioned "able theologians" supporting this point of view. And kbertsche and I both referred to Bible verses as evidence of the standard understanding as well.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 9:07 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Admin, posted 01-20-2016 8:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024