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Author | Topic: Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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jar writes:
What do you think Jesus meant in Jn 5:39 when He said, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me"? Except, of course, neither you or anyone else has ever been able to show that any Old Testament passage refers to Jesus and in fact every single example you or anyone else has put forward has been shown to be either misrepresentation or taking quotes out of context. Wasn't Jesus claiming that the OT referred to Him? Was Jesus mistaken?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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The early church fathers plus Kbertsche's quote from John plus a couple from Luke should be much more than enough to show how wrong you are:
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:44-46 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day...
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If Jesus did say that then yes, he was mistaken.
Remember that the author(s) of the gospel of John were writing a revisionist document trying to market a different picture of the character Jesus and that he(they) also often went from quoting to editorial comment with no indication that it was not an actual quote from Jesus. Also note that as was so often the case, no details were included; no list of verses or passages that could then be tested to verify or refute the assertion. Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As pointed out above, notice no specifics are included so that the assertions could be verified.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As pointed out above, notice no specifics are included so that the assertions could be verified. The assertions are that the Church believes Christ was the subject of the Old Testament, and that was amply proved by the scripture quotes given by kbertsche and by me and by the quotes from the early church fathers. That is, Jesus Himself said, and the Church has believed from the earliest days, that the OT is about Him.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I don't doubt folk believed and tried to market such things but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not such a belief could be in anyway justified or true.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Bliyaal Member (Idle past 2395 days) Posts: 171 From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada Joined: |
The assertions are that the Church believes Christ was the subject of the Old Testament Oh really? Let's take a look at it. You wrote :
She'd have to be told that the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all. Not quite the same thing isn't it?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't doubt folk believed and tried to market such things but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not such a belief could be in anyway justified or true. If Jesus' saying it and the Church Fathers affirming it isn't enough to verify it for you, nothing would.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
True, not quite what it seems to say but the point I intended was to answer her wondering about how Christianity took over from Judaism, and the answer is that Christianity reads the Hebrew scriptures as all pointing to the Messiah Jesus. What I actually wrote doesn't make it clear that I was talking about what Christianity teaches that sets us apart from Judaism's reading of the Hebrew scriptures. You are right the statement implies more but all that was intended was this much and this much got answered. I just left out the subject I had in mind, which should be inserted into the original statement as follows:
She'd have to be told that CHRISTIANITY TEACHES THAT the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all. I wasn't intending to invite a debate on the truth of the Church's beliefs, with her or with anyone here, I just wanted to answer her question. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: If Jesus' saying it and the Church Fathers affirming it isn't enough to verify it for you, nothing would. Actually Faith, what would satisfy me would be ANY evidence that it was true but as been shown here at EvC repeatedly not one single Old Testament verse can be shown to relate to Jesus. Unsupported assertions of course carry no weight and rightly so. Hell, some Christians even believe nonsense like a young earth or that evolution is not a fact or that one of the Biblical Flood myths actually happened.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Actually Faith, what would satisfy me would be ANY evidence that it was true but as been shown here at EvC repeatedly not one single Old Testament verse can be shown to relate to Jesus. Funny then that millions of us believe hundreds of them do, and with Jesus and Augustine and other church fathers affirming it we have pretty good evidence I'd say. Possibly a matter of having the ears to hear? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
jar writes:
Interesting perspective. If Jesus did say that then yes, he was mistaken.Remember that the author(s) of the gospel of John were writing a revisionist document trying to market a different picture of the character Jesus and that he(they) also often went from quoting to editorial comment with no indication that it was not an actual quote from Jesus. Also note that as was so often the case, no details were included; no list of verses or passages that could then be tested to verify or refute the assertion. I believe all of the gospel writers made claims that the OT spoke of Jesus, as did Paul (e.g. 1 Cor 15:3ff: Christ died, etc, "according to the Scriptures"). So do you take the position that all of this was first-century revisionism, including the very early creed in 1 Cor 15? (Even skeptics such as Bart Ehrman date this creed to just a few years after the crucifixion.) Edited by kbertsche, : Clarification"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Funny then that millions of us believe hundreds of them do, and with Jesus and Augustine and other church fathers affirming it we have pretty good evidence I'd say. Possibly a matter of having the ears to hear? It's not that funny (sad perhaps) that millions believe such nonsense. Many people accept unsupported assertions without question. In fact that is the whole base of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. But the fact remains, so far no one has every been able to support any example presented of an Old Testament that refers to Jesus.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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jar writes: But the fact remains, so far no one has every been able to support any example presented of an Old Testament that refers to Jesus. I take a middle of the road position on this question. I don't see anything in the OT that specifically refers to Jesus but there is a great deal that refers to Israel itself. I understand that Jesus' self understanding led Him to believe that He was standing in for the nation of Israel, and so that even though things like the suffering servant in Isaiah, or the lament in Psalm 22 were written about Israel itself Jesus saw Himself standing in for Israel in these accounts. His quoting Psalm 22 on the cross was to draw attention to the His belief that this is what was happening. However again, I don't see any clear examples of specific OT quotes where the writer specifically saw the messiah coming or acting in the way that Jesus did. Jesus however through an inspired knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures saw them in a different light than any of His fellow Jews. In the end He is crucified and has just become another failed messiah like others before and after Him, except one that is apparently was more deluded than most in that He saw Himself as embodying the return of Yahweh to the Jewish nation. That is where His followers believed it to have ended, which it would have if it wasn't for the fact that God resurrected Jesus thus vindicating the criminal's death that He had endured and at the same time affirming His life and message. So again, although I don't see Jesus as being specifically prophesied about in the OT I do see him as being the climax of fulfilment of the OT narrative, which I contend is also the position of the NT authors.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
GDR writes: In the end He is crucified and has just become another failed messiah like others before and after Him, except one that is apparently was more deluded than most in that He saw Himself as embodying the return of Yahweh to the Jewish nation. That is where His followers believed it to have ended, which it would have if it wasn't for the fact that God resurrected Jesus thus vindicating the criminal's death that He had endured and at the same time affirming His life and message. So again, although I don't see Jesus as being specifically prophesied about in the OT I do see him as being the climax of fulfilment of the OT narrative, which I contend is also the position of the NT authors. Except, of course, for the fact that none of the Jewish Messiah prophecies concern a Messiah who does not rule bodily as a Prince or King. Should Jesus actually return then it might be claimed that he really is the Jewish Messiah; but according to the New Testament stories that is not what happened. Yes, I agree that the first generation followers of Jesus did likely view him as the Messiah but only by totally revising the Jewish understanding and writings on the subject and that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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