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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 384 of 478 (776341)
01-12-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Blue Jay
01-11-2016 2:37 PM


Re: Rationalizing Killing
Blue Jay writes:
However, the part I get hung up on is the part where God chooses to work through fallible, mortal agents to enact these justified killings. The Bible makes it clear that God is capable of doing His own killing, so I’m not sure why He’s hiring assassins to do it for Him; especially if it makes it that much easier for misguided followers and malicious pretenders to obscure their illegitimate murders behind a pretext of divine sanction.
I made that point with Faith earlier in the thread and of course there is no answer other that that she trusts God. Actually, it isnt about trusting God or even Jesus but about trusting in the idea that God essentially dictated an infallible Bible. That is simply an idea that grew out of the reformation with no reasonable rationale for it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Blue Jay, posted 01-11-2016 2:37 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 01-12-2016 11:22 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 464 of 478 (776770)
01-19-2016 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
01-19-2016 9:07 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes:
But the fact remains, so far no one has every been able to support any example presented of an Old Testament that refers to Jesus.
I take a middle of the road position on this question. I don't see anything in the OT that specifically refers to Jesus but there is a great deal that refers to Israel itself. I understand that Jesus' self understanding led Him to believe that He was standing in for the nation of Israel, and so that even though things like the suffering servant in Isaiah, or the lament in Psalm 22 were written about Israel itself Jesus saw Himself standing in for Israel in these accounts. His quoting Psalm 22 on the cross was to draw attention to the His belief that this is what was happening.
However again, I don't see any clear examples of specific OT quotes where the writer specifically saw the messiah coming or acting in the way that Jesus did. Jesus however through an inspired knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures saw them in a different light than any of His fellow Jews. In the end He is crucified and has just become another failed messiah like others before and after Him, except one that is apparently was more deluded than most in that He saw Himself as embodying the return of Yahweh to the Jewish nation.
That is where His followers believed it to have ended, which it would have if it wasn't for the fact that God resurrected Jesus thus vindicating the criminal's death that He had endured and at the same time affirming His life and message.
So again, although I don't see Jesus as being specifically prophesied about in the OT I do see him as being the climax of fulfilment of the OT narrative, which I contend is also the position of the NT authors.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 11:14 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 467 of 478 (776774)
01-20-2016 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by jar
01-19-2016 11:14 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes:
Except, of course, for the fact that none of the Jewish Messiah prophecies concern a Messiah who does not rule bodily as a Prince or King.
That was certainly the understanding of the Jews at that time but Jesus saw it differently which is clear in the Gospel, with statements like the first shall be last etc. It does harken back to the vision of Israel as a suffering servant. Jesus led a kingdom movement but of a kingdom "not from this world". It is a kingdom that is to reflect God's love, peace and justice, or a kingdom called to serve God's creation.
jar writes:
Should Jesus actually return then it might be claimed that he really is the Jewish Messiah; but according to the New Testament stories that is not what happened.
...but a resurrected Jesus did return according to the Gospels.
jar writes:
Yes, I agree that the first generation followers of Jesus did likely view him as the Messiah but only by totally revising the Jewish understanding and writings on the subject and that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions.
I agree that they revised the Jewish understanding of the writings but they revised them in the way that Jesus had. In what way do you see them revising the writings themselves.
You then launch into your usual patronizing comments such as: "that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions". First off, they had nothing to gain but a great deal to lose by becoming followers of Jesus. Secondly why on Earth would they consider a man who had died a criminal's death, without ever having had any military success, or have even mounted a campaign against the enemy as their messiah?
They claim that it is because He was resurrected.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 11:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 9:33 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 470 of 478 (776806)
01-20-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by jar
01-20-2016 9:33 AM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes:
But did not rule and was not a Prince or King or leader of Israel.
The disciples would argue that He was King and was ruling, but it wasn't just about Israel, but about the world. The view was that it went back to the original Abrahamic promise that it was to be a blessing for all nations. They saw Him reigning in the manner described metaphorically in the Son of Man accounts of Daniel 7.
jar writes:
But many other people in the Bible stories were also resurrected so the simple fact of resurrection is unrelated to any Messianic claims. Jesus was in no way unique when considering either his death or his resurrection.
Resurrection was never the same thing as resuscitation. Lazarus simply had his life extended. The point of resurrection is that Jesus was resurrected into a new bodily form that isn't subject to entropy and which is the first example of the time, whenever it is, that God will renew the whole cosmos.
jar writes:
There was the Ascension and the promise from Jesus that during their lifetimes he would return as a warlord and ruler, kick ass and take names and bring about the end of times battles and win them. He would judge and punish and reward.
They believed all that. They believed the revolution was imminent.
That is just dead wrong. Jesus' message was that their revolutionary ways would result in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. He called them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek etc.
Many Jews at that time believed in resurrection but there is no evidence of any belief that one person would be resurrected ahead of the general resurrection at the end of time. There is nothing in the Hebrew Scriptures that would cause anyone to make up an account of the resurrection as written in the Gospels.
The Maccabees talked about being resurrected after actually ruling for nearly a century, but nobody thought of suggesting that it would happen until the end of time.
The faith has always been in the belief that God resurrected Jesus and without that belief their is no rational reason for them to carry on with the movement that Jesus had started.
jar writes:
That was the first real crisis of Faith when they all started dying off and yet Jesus had not returned. It was not going to happen in their lifetimes.
They probably did believe that Jesus would return in their life times in just the same way that Faith and others seem to think that His return is imminent now. It is human nature to predict such things.
jar writes:
That was when the revisionism really set in and the Messianic picture had to be modified to something in the unspecified future initially and then to "otherworldly", "Not of THIS world".
By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality.
The thrust of their message was not about His imminent return but about His message that His Kingdom had been established and that Jesus followers were to embody Christ's message of God's love, peace and justice to the world. Certainly humans, being humans, have as often as not failed miserably in doing that, but their are many who faithfully do reflect that image of God in their lives.
jar writes:
By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality.
No, they just had to say that it hasn't happened yet. Sure, there is ambiguity and the writers of the epistles were the earliest theologians, who just like theologians today were working at understanding the message of the Gospels, which is a direct result of the Gospel message that God resurrected Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 9:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 3:12 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 472 of 478 (776822)
01-20-2016 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by jar
01-20-2016 3:12 PM


jar writes:
The Epistle predate the Gospels, at least the known Gospels. Paul in particular is simply building a franchise and his message constantly evolved based on audience and era.
Some Epistles predate all of the Gospels and some were written at the same time. However that isn't the whole story. For eaxample Luke starts off his Gospel this way.
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
The Gospels are compiled from previous material, possibly "Q" for example, which presumably would have begun shortly after the resurrection and there may well have been accounts that were written during Jesus' life time. The fact that the Gospels as we know them were put together after some of the Epistles is immaterial. Paul would have received his information from the witnesses and from whatever written material there was at the time.
jar writes:
Look at the evolution of the story of Paul's encounter as it expanded with retelling and the changes in the Great Commission over time. In both cases a relatively straight forward account got wooified and changed. They expected the end times because Jesus said the would happen during their lifetimes.
Sure, there are differences between the authors in their understanding. Would you rather they had colluded.
The reference that Jesus made about what you refer to as end times was in reality His message to the revolutionaries that were they were doing was going to bring about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which did happen in 70AD. I am not saying it took supernatural ability to know that but just a clear understanding of the politics of the age and knowing what the Roman response would be.
jar writes:
Look at the apocalyptic writings of the era. They do not show some cumbaya let's all get together and be alright times, they call for war and killings and punishment and suffering. Even the Gospels point to that.
quote:
John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I have already agreed that the primary Jewish belief in that era was that Yahweh would help them to militarily defeat their enemies. Jesus' message was that it wasn't really the Romans that were the enemy but "evil" itself and that evil is ultimately only defeated by love. The evil of the crucifixion was overcome by the love of the resurrection.
I looked at several translations of vs 29 and none of them used the word damnation. All the other translations I looked at used condemnation or judgement rather than damnation, which is a verey different thing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 3:12 PM jar has not replied

  
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