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Author Topic:   Christians And Science Don't Get Along
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1 of 93 (776841)
01-21-2016 3:10 AM


Researchers Probe Stereotype: Christians And Science Don't Get Along.
quote:
This research looks at a majority group - American Christians - and it looks at a stereotype about American Christians - that Christians and science don't get along. We often see headlines in the news that say creationism and evolution are in conflict. And many people have a stereotype that there's something about Christianity and science that don't mix. I was speaking with Kimberly Rios at Ohio University, and she told me that she noticed something on a recent trip to Morocco. When she talked to people there about religion and science, she found that Moroccans had a very different concept than the one in the United States when it came to Christianity and science.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2 of 93 (776846)
01-21-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-21-2016 3:10 AM


Most of the world have a very different concept than the view of American fundamentalists, when it comes to the compatibility between Christianity and science.
This is what happens with the idolization of the Bible. This takes the focus off of Jesus as the embodied Word or wisdom of God, and although it is most prominent in the US it exists other places as well to a much lesser degree.
Science when viewed properly by any theist can be viewed as a natural theology. That view is even consistent with the Bible and particularly in the Pauline epistles.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 93 (776847)
01-21-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-21-2016 3:10 AM


As usual I feel obliged to make the necessary correction to this common idea: there is NO conflict between SCIENCE AS SUCH and Christianity, NONE. The conflict is specifically between the Bible and the scientific claims that support evolution, which are not provable because they are pure conjecture about singular past events that can only be interpreted, not replicated or tested experimentally. Science as such -- meaning science that can be replicated, tested, experimentally verified -- is supported by the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 4 of 93 (776858)
01-21-2016 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
01-21-2016 11:30 AM


The conflict is specifically between the Bible and the scientific claims that support evolution,
So what does the Bible say about climate change, genetic engineering and vaccines, which are scientific issues that seem to be in conflict with a significant portion of the evangelical population? There is something else going on besides just rejection of evolution because of Biblical teachings.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 93 (776860)
01-21-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by herebedragons
01-21-2016 1:45 PM


The conflict is specifically between the Bible and the scientific claims that support evolution,
So what does the Bible say about climate change, genetic engineering and vaccines, which are scientific issues that seem to be in conflict with a significant portion of the evangelical population? There is something else going on besides just rejection of evolution because of Biblical teachings.
Not that I know of. I've never heard any of that criticized on the basis of the Bible. They aren't even particularly evangelical concerns as far as I know. Vaccines are considered unsafe because of additives; climate change is doubted on the basis of scientific questions, saying it's unproved, at least that its causes haven't been proved; not sure about the genetic engineering arguments. These aren't biblical issues.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 6 of 93 (776864)
01-21-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
01-21-2016 2:00 PM


Precisely. So why does the same group of people who object to evolution for Biblical reasons also reject climate change, vaccinations and genetic modification? I am not asking what the reasons are that they reject those areas; I am asking why the same group of people reject a wide range of scientific ideas. It seems "anti-science" or at least anti progressive science.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 01-21-2016 2:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 93 (776868)
01-21-2016 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by herebedragons
01-21-2016 3:05 PM


Precisely. So why does the same group of people who object to evolution for Biblical reasons also reject climate change, vaccinations and genetic modification? I am not asking what the reasons are that they reject those areas; I am asking why the same group of people reject a wide range of scientific ideas. It seems "anti-science" or at least anti progressive science.
AS I SAID, I am not aware that it IS "the same group of people." The people against vaccinations that I know of are NOT Christians for instance. My impression is that the same is true for climate change.
So the first two categories are not evangelical concerns, that I'm aware of, AS I SAID, and I'm not up on genetic modification and don't know if it's particularly an evangelical concern or not.
BUT SINCE YOU ARE NOT ASKING ABOUT A CLASH BETWEEN THE BIBLE AND SCIENCE THIS IS OFF TOPIC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 8 of 93 (776870)
01-21-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
01-21-2016 4:58 PM


BUT SINCE YOU ARE NOT ASKING ABOUT A CLASH BETWEEN THE BIBLE AND SCIENCE THIS IS OFF TOPIC.
Writing in all caps does NOT help the conversation, so I assume you are trying to shut the conversation down.
However, maybe you could read the title of the thread...
"Christians and science don't get along" not "Bible and science" so this is NOT off topic. If you don't want to have a discussion then just don't.
There is a connection. Fundamental Christians tend to deny human mediated climate change and they think vaccinations and genetically modified foods are dangerous. I don't have the time right now to dig up a bunch of sources, just do a google search for Christians and any of those terms and you will see the connection.
I did not say ALL Christians deny these sciences. ABE: Nor did I say ONLY Christians deny these sciences. /ABE I asked the question why so many Christians tend to reject these other areas of science that have no Biblical basis rather than embracing them and even supporting them??
So the first two categories are not evangelical concerns, that I'm aware of, AS I SAID, and I'm not up on genetic modification and don't know if it's particularly an evangelical concern or not.
Why are they NOT evangelical concerns?? Are we not charged to care for the earth? Should we not be concerned with the "toxins" we put in our bodies? Should we be playing God and manipulating the genetic information in plants, animals and humans? How are these NOT Christian concerns?
If Christians actually DO accept science why are these issues NOT evangelical concerns?
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 9 of 93 (776871)
01-21-2016 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
01-21-2016 4:58 PM


Correlation
Actually take a look at this article from the Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...ont-have-to-be-in-conflict
here is the chart presented in that article
Notice the correlation between support of evolution and support of environmental regulations? As support for evolution goes down so does support for environmental regulations. Now you are aware that it IS "the same group of people" - at least as far as climate change is concerned.
So why? What do you think there is this connection?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 01-21-2016 4:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 10 of 93 (776886)
01-21-2016 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
01-21-2016 11:30 AM


The conflict is specifically between the Bible and the scientific claims
You are describing your own personal conflicts with science. The conflict actually extends into the scientific use of empiricism in general and extends beyond what you claim regarding evolution.
Perhaps you've forgotten that for people who believe in a 6000 year old universe, the conflicts extend beyond evolution to areas such as astronomy and cosmology, nuclear physics, archaeology and paleontology just to name a few.
Beyond that there are other fundamental conflicts that crop up with many fundamentalists (maybe not including you) involving environmentalism and conservation in general and the Biblical view of dominion over the earth and the close proximity of the end times.
Again, I don't want to attribute any particular philosophy about any of these things to you, but they are a part of the wider discussion about the conflict between science and religion.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 93 (776892)
01-22-2016 3:05 AM


Thread Moved from Links and Information Forum
Thread moved here from the Links and Information forum.
I figured since we were having a debate/discussion that Links&Information was an inappropriate Forum. Carry on...
Edited by AdminPhat, : clarification of Admin decision
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 93 (776895)
01-22-2016 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
01-21-2016 11:30 AM


it is not Christianity that has any problems with evolution or old earth.
As usual I feel obliged to make the necessary correction to this common idea: there is NO conflict between SCIENCE AS SUCH and Christianity, NONE.
The conflict is specifically between the reality and the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(2)
Message 13 of 93 (776898)
01-22-2016 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by herebedragons
01-21-2016 5:45 PM


Damn it, Mormons!
Hi, Herebedragons.
Once again, the "Mormons" data point sticks out to me. I grew up Mormon, and I thought I had a good understanding of the social dynamics in that community. Just running on my intuition, I always thought Mormons were more open to mainstream science than other Christian denominations, and tended to be more "intellectual" and well-educated, but I keep seeing this type of data that show Mormons as some of the least science-minded and least educated people in the USA.
Clearly, I must have been projecting my own views on my greater community. I suspect that Faith is doing the same thing. We all make the mistake of substituting our personal experiences for hard data, even if we know that personal experiences are always charged with personal biases and misinterpretations. We are simply not built to recognize the disparity between reality and our personal viewpoints.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 14 of 93 (776905)
01-22-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by herebedragons
01-21-2016 5:35 PM


There is a connection. Fundamental Christians tend to deny human mediated climate change and they think vaccinations and genetically modified foods are dangerous. I don't have the time right now to dig up a bunch of sources, just do a google search for Christians and any of those terms and you will see the connection.
I'm fairly sure that vaccine opposition does not correlate with religiosity. I'm sure I've seen research showing this, but haven't been able to find it in a quick search - I'll come back if I do. A quick Google search as you recommend, however, finds only sources demonstrating no correlation between political views and anti-vaccination beliefs; despite known correlations between political beliefs and religious views.
If there's a correlation between climate-change denial and religiosity I suspect that's more an artefact of the fact that conservatives are more likely to be Christians (in the US) - climate-change denial tends to be caused more by fear of governmental regulation (in my opinion).

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 93 (776906)
01-22-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
01-22-2016 11:48 AM


I'm fairly sure that vaccine opposition does not correlate with religiosity. I'm sure I've seen research showing this, but haven't been able to find it in a quick search - I'll come back if I do. A quick Google search as you recommend, however, finds only sources demonstrating no correlation between political views and anti-vaccination beliefs; despite known correlations between political beliefs and religious views.
If there's a correlation between climate-change denial and religiosity I suspect that's more an artefact of the fact that conservatives are more likely to be Christians (in the US) - climate-change denial tends to be caused more by fear of governmental regulation (in my opinion).
Thank you, that's pretty much what I was trying to say.

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