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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 466 of 478 (776772)
01-19-2016 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
01-19-2016 9:07 PM


Evidence in links at Jews for Jesus, plus edit added for clarification
Many people accept unsupported assertions without question. In fact that is the whole base of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

They are not unsupported at all, they have been defended by many able theologians down the centuries. You don't accept the arguments but millions of us do; there is nothing unsupported about them.

Here, try a page of links to arguments on the subject from Jews for Jesus.

Here's one of the links: "365 Prophecies" . I'm sure you dismiss all of them if only on the basis that they aren't direct prophetic statements. Nevertheless the Church down the centuries has regarded them as prophecies, fools that we are, because the New Testament treats them as prophecies.

ABE 1/20/16: A few posts down Admin emphasizes that bare links are not acceptable, which I think refers to this post. In this case I have to point out that links are the whole thing here. The page of "365 Prophecies" is a list of quotes of that many Old Testament references as links, followed by the New Testament fulfillments, as links, as follows:

Tanach Reference Prophecy Fullfilment
Genesis 3:15 Seed of a woman (virgin birth) Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20
Genesis 3:15 He will bruise Satan's head Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8
Genesis 5:24 The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated Mark 6:19
Genesis 9:26-27 The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem. Luke 3:36
Genesis 12:3 As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations Acts 3:25,26
Genesis 12:7 The Promise made to Abraham's Seed Galatians 3:16
Genesis 14:18 A priest after Melchizedek Hebrews 6:20
Genesis 14:18 A King also Hebrews 7:2
Genesis 14:18 The Last Supper foreshadowed Matthew 26:26-29
Genesis 17:19 The Seed of Isaac Romans. 9:7
Etc.

The point is to illustrate the hundreds of references in the OT treated as prophecies in the New Testament. You have to read the links to get the message, there's nothing much I could add in my own words to make it any clearer.

Also, I keep emphasizing the millions of believers in these things because jar's point of view is so far from what Christianity teaches, even possibly unique to him since I've never heard of half of what he says except from him, it seems important to point out that there is a traditional standard body of understanding held by a great number of believers down the centuries, just in case some readers don't know enough about these things to realize how completely jar's opinions are his own and represent no known branch of Christianity. GDR's beliefs are also far from the main line of traditional Christian understanding, but he does at least have a modern source of his opinions in N T Wright. Still a revisionist, still not in the main line of Christian thought. I think these simple statistics do say something substantial about the topic.

I referred to the views of the early "church fathers" as evidence earlier. Perhaps should have repeated this since it's what I had in mind when I mentioned "able theologians" supporting this point of view. And kbertsche and I both referred to Bible verses as evidence of the standard understanding as well.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 467 of 478 (776774)
01-20-2016 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by jar
01-19-2016 11:14 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes:

Except, of course, for the fact that none of the Jewish Messiah prophecies concern a Messiah who does not rule bodily as a Prince or King.

That was certainly the understanding of the Jews at that time but Jesus saw it differently which is clear in the Gospel, with statements like the first shall be last etc. It does harken back to the vision of Israel as a suffering servant. Jesus led a kingdom movement but of a kingdom "not from this world". It is a kingdom that is to reflect God's love, peace and justice, or a kingdom called to serve God's creation.

jar writes:

Should Jesus actually return then it might be claimed that he really is the Jewish Messiah; but according to the New Testament stories that is not what happened.

...but a resurrected Jesus did return according to the Gospels.

jar writes:

Yes, I agree that the first generation followers of Jesus did likely view him as the Messiah but only by totally revising the Jewish understanding and writings on the subject and that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions.

I agree that they revised the Jewish understanding of the writings but they revised them in the way that Jesus had. In what way do you see them revising the writings themselves.

You then launch into your usual patronizing comments such as: "that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions". First off, they had nothing to gain but a great deal to lose by becoming followers of Jesus. Secondly why on Earth would they consider a man who had died a criminal's death, without ever having had any military success, or have even mounted a campaign against the enemy as their messiah?

They claim that it is because He was resurrected.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 11:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 9:33 AM GDR has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 468 of 478 (776791)
01-20-2016 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
01-19-2016 11:22 PM


Moderator Ruling
I rule that for this discussion it is fact that millions and perhaps billions, including theologians of great insight and intellect, have believed as you do. I also rule that the argument that millions and perhaps billions have believed as you do cannot be used to support your points. Neither can unsupported assertions and links. You must present the evidence and arguments in your own words. From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

  2. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 469 of 478 (776796)
01-20-2016 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by GDR
01-20-2016 2:05 AM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
GDR writes:

...but a resurrected Jesus did return according to the Gospels.

But did not rule and was not a Prince or King or leader of Israel.

GDR writes:

You then launch into your usual patronizing comments such as: "that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions". First off, they had nothing to gain but a great deal to lose by becoming followers of Jesus. Secondly why on Earth would they consider a man who had died a criminal's death, without ever having had any military success, or have even mounted a campaign against the enemy as their messiah?

They claim that it is because He was resurrected.

But many other people in the Bible stories were also resurrected so the simple fact of resurrection is unrelated to any Messianic claims. Jesus was in no way unique when considering either his death or his resurrection.

But wait...there's more.

There was the Ascension and the promise from Jesus that during their lifetimes he would return as a warlord and ruler, kick ass and take names and bring about the end of times battles and win them. He would judge and punish and reward.

They believed all that. They believed the revolution was imminent.

That was the first real crisis of Faith when they all started dying off and yet Jesus had not returned. It was not going to happen in their lifetimes.

That was when the revisionism really set in and the Messianic picture had to be modified to something in the unspecified future initially and then to "otherworldly", "Not of THIS world".

By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 2:05 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 470 of 478 (776806)
01-20-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by jar
01-20-2016 9:33 AM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes:

But did not rule and was not a Prince or King or leader of Israel.

The disciples would argue that He was King and was ruling, but it wasn't just about Israel, but about the world. The view was that it went back to the original Abrahamic promise that it was to be a blessing for all nations. They saw Him reigning in the manner described metaphorically in the Son of Man accounts of Daniel 7.

jar writes:

But many other people in the Bible stories were also resurrected so the simple fact of resurrection is unrelated to any Messianic claims. Jesus was in no way unique when considering either his death or his resurrection.


Resurrection was never the same thing as resuscitation. Lazarus simply had his life extended. The point of resurrection is that Jesus was resurrected into a new bodily form that isn't subject to entropy and which is the first example of the time, whenever it is, that God will renew the whole cosmos.

jar writes:

There was the Ascension and the promise from Jesus that during their lifetimes he would return as a warlord and ruler, kick ass and take names and bring about the end of times battles and win them. He would judge and punish and reward.

They believed all that. They believed the revolution was imminent.

That is just dead wrong. Jesus' message was that their revolutionary ways would result in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. He called them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek etc.

Many Jews at that time believed in resurrection but there is no evidence of any belief that one person would be resurrected ahead of the general resurrection at the end of time. There is nothing in the Hebrew Scriptures that would cause anyone to make up an account of the resurrection as written in the Gospels.

The Maccabees talked about being resurrected after actually ruling for nearly a century, but nobody thought of suggesting that it would happen until the end of time.

The faith has always been in the belief that God resurrected Jesus and without that belief their is no rational reason for them to carry on with the movement that Jesus had started.

jar writes:

That was the first real crisis of Faith when they all started dying off and yet Jesus had not returned. It was not going to happen in their lifetimes.


They probably did believe that Jesus would return in their life times in just the same way that Faith and others seem to think that His return is imminent now. It is human nature to predict such things.

jar writes:

That was when the revisionism really set in and the Messianic picture had to be modified to something in the unspecified future initially and then to "otherworldly", "Not of THIS world".

By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality.

The thrust of their message was not about His imminent return but about His message that His Kingdom had been established and that Jesus followers were to embody Christ's message of God's love, peace and justice to the world. Certainly humans, being humans, have as often as not failed miserably in doing that, but their are many who faithfully do reflect that image of God in their lives.

jar writes:

By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality.

No, they just had to say that it hasn't happened yet. Sure, there is ambiguity and the writers of the epistles were the earliest theologians, who just like theologians today were working at understanding the message of the Gospels, which is a direct result of the Gospel message that God resurrected Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 9:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 471 of 478 (776813)
01-20-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by GDR
01-20-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
The Epistle predate the Gospels, at least the known Gospels. Paul in particular is simply building a franchise and his message constantly evolved based on audience and era.

Look at the evolution of the story of Paul's encounter as it expanded with retelling and the changes in the Great Commission over time. In both cases a relatively straight forward account got wooified and changed. They expected the end times because Jesus said the would happen during their lifetimes.

Much of Paul's objections to marriage seem to revolve around the imminent end times, there simply would not be time to raise kids before the end.

And nowhere does resuscitation enter into any of the stories of others resurrected. They are dead and made alive. It's not just one instance either but many.

Look at the apocalyptic writings of the era. They do not show some cumbaya let's all get together and be alright times, they call for war and killings and punishment and suffering. Even the Gospels point to that.

quote:
John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 1:01 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 472 of 478 (776822)
01-20-2016 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by jar
01-20-2016 3:12 PM


jar writes:

The Epistle predate the Gospels, at least the known Gospels. Paul in particular is simply building a franchise and his message constantly evolved based on audience and era.

Some Epistles predate all of the Gospels and some were written at the same time. However that isn't the whole story. For eaxample Luke starts off his Gospel this way.

quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

The Gospels are compiled from previous material, possibly "Q" for example, which presumably would have begun shortly after the resurrection and there may well have been accounts that were written during Jesus' life time. The fact that the Gospels as we know them were put together after some of the Epistles is immaterial. Paul would have received his information from the witnesses and from whatever written material there was at the time.

jar writes:

Look at the evolution of the story of Paul's encounter as it expanded with retelling and the changes in the Great Commission over time. In both cases a relatively straight forward account got wooified and changed. They expected the end times because Jesus said the would happen during their lifetimes.

Sure, there are differences between the authors in their understanding. Would you rather they had colluded.

The reference that Jesus made about what you refer to as end times was in reality His message to the revolutionaries that were they were doing was going to bring about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which did happen in 70AD. I am not saying it took supernatural ability to know that but just a clear understanding of the politics of the age and knowing what the Roman response would be.

jar writes:

Look at the apocalyptic writings of the era. They do not show some cumbaya let's all get together and be alright times, they call for war and killings and punishment and suffering. Even the Gospels point to that.

quote:
John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I have already agreed that the primary Jewish belief in that era was that Yahweh would help them to militarily defeat their enemies. Jesus' message was that it wasn't really the Romans that were the enemy but "evil" itself and that evil is ultimately only defeated by love. The evil of the crucifixion was overcome by the love of the resurrection.

I looked at several translations of vs 29 and none of them used the word damnation. All the other translations I looked at used condemnation or judgement rather than damnation, which is a verey different thing.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 3:12 PM jar has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 910
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 473 of 478 (776876)
01-21-2016 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Faith
01-18-2016 3:23 AM


quote:

There is no reason whatever to think the vote was manipulated in any way, which is what LNA is claiming. The vast majority understood the scriptures to define the nature of Christ according to the Creed that the council produced, which expressed the beliefs of the majority of attendees against those of Arius: Christ begotten not made for starters.

The vote would have been different if not for the fact that the only people allowed to vote were Roman Catholics.

James, the brother of Jesus (not to mention the apostles and Jesus himself) was considered a "heretic" by every single one of those bishops in 325 AD.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 3:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 910
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 474 of 478 (776878)
01-21-2016 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Faith
01-18-2016 4:00 AM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
quote:

Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history

That's what the Catholics called the followers of James and the Apostles.

I've just about had it with people ignoring history and making up whatever they want. Faith is defending Roman "church" but just not calling it Catholic. Here is a historian (with theology like Faith, and frankly I don't agree with a lot of what he says) and even he admits that James (as represented in Acts 15 and 21) was a heretic by the 2nd century and afterwards. (He gets that part right!)

quote:

Early history of the Christian church
from its foundation to the end of the fifth century
Louis Duchesne
CHAPTER 2

In Palestine, the one sanctuary of the worship of Jahve,
the Temple, retained its high prestige. The sacerdotal
hierarchy, swayed by the aristocratic Sadducean p.'irty,
strictly maintained the ritual observances. But the
luxury, the depravity, the religious indifference of these
sacerdotal leaders, their subserviency to the Roman
authorities, their contempt for the Messianic hope and the
doctrine of the resurrection, had alienated from them the
affection of the people, and, in the eyes of some, even
cast discredit on the Temple itself Some indeed were
so much disgusted that they fled from the official sanctuary
and its servants, and, afar from the world, devoted them-
selves to the service of God and a strict observance of the
Law. The Essenes represented this movement : grouped
in small communities they lived on the borders of the
Dead Sea, near Kngaddi.

The Sadducean priests persecuted Jesus Christ and His
disciples. As for the Essenes, they lived alongside of the
new Faith, and if they did embrace it, it was but slowly.
The Pharisees, so often condemned in the Gospels for their
hypocrisy, their false zeal, and their peculiar practices, did
not form a special sect ; the name was applied generally
to all those who were ultra-scrupulous in following the
Law, and not the Law only, but the thousand observances
with which they had amplified it, attributing as much
importance to them as to the fundamental precepts of
morality. Still, they were faithful defenders of the
Messianic hope and of belief in the resurrection. Beneath
their proud and overstrained attachment to details of
observance, they had a solid foundation of faith and piety.
Amongst them the Gospel made many excellent converts.

....

All accounts agree in
pointing out as its starting-point a small group of persons
living in Jerusalem during the last years of the Emperor
Tiberius (30-37 A.D.). These first believers acknowledged
the name and doctrine of Jesus of Nazareth, recently con-
demned to death by order of the procurator Pilate, at the
instigation of the Jewish authorities. Many of them had
known Him in life ; all knew that He had been crucified ;
all believed also that He had risen from the dead.

....

Meanwhile, His faithful followers went about spreading
the good news, the Gospel, and thus gathering in the elect.
They lived in close spiritual union : the same faith, the
same expectation, bound them closely to one another.
The leaders were twelve men who, during the preceding
years, had lived in His most intimate circle; they had
received from Jesus's lips the teaching they imparted in His
name, and they could bear witness to His miracles.

....

This first group of the faithful were still deeply imbued
with the Jewish spirit. Between them and the pious Jews
there was scarcely room for dissension. All that the
sincerely religious people of their nation believed, hoped,
and practised, they also believed, hoped, and practised.
They went with the rest to the Temple ; they submitted
to the common observances of the Law. One point alone
distinguished them : for them the Messiah did not belong
to a vague, uncertain future. They had found Him, for
He had come and had revealed Himself: and they were
sure of seeing Him again soon.

Although this first Christian community grew rather
rapidly, it soon had to give up the hope of incorporating
the main body of Palestinian Jews. Its missionary work
came into conflict not only with the ill-will of the religious
authorities, but also with public opinion. Opposed in
Jerusalem, it spread in other directions

....

...the infant Church gained the most unexpected
adherent in the person of Saul of Tarsus, an eager and
learned zealot of the Law, and till then a fanatical perse-
cutor of the disciples of Jesus. Converted by a vision of
the Lord as he journeyed from Jerusalem to Damascus,
he joined himself first to the Christians there, and then
began to evangelize the kingdom of Arabia.

....

The admission
of the centurion Cornelius and his companions into the
Church roused such strong opposition among the Christians
in Jerusalem, that the Apostle Peter found it necessary to
confute them ; but he did so only by sheltering himself
under a Divine intervention.
....

CHAPTER 3 CHAPTER 3 CHAPTER 3

In the early Christian society the most strongly traditional
and conservative elements from the Jewish point of view
were represented by the converts from the Judaism of Pales-
tine, who spoke Aramaic, and were necessarily impervious to
external influences.

....

When for a time persecution dispersed the community in
Jerusalem, some of these converts carried the Gospel to
the towns on the Phcnician coast, to the island of Cyprus,
and as far as Antioch, There were even some ó they were
natives of Cyprus and Cyrene ó who went so far as to
preach to the " Greeks " of Antioch ó to men, that is, who however well disposed they may have been towards the
God of Israel, yet were not of the circumcision. Many
were converted, and formed the nucleus of the Church at
Antioch, which quickly became a second centre of Chris-
tian development, and especially of evangelization.

....

In Antioch was organized the first mission to distant
lands. And it was Saul and Barnabas again who were in
charge of it.

....

After four or five years, the missionaries went back to
Antioch, leaving behind, in each town where they had
sojourned, a little Christian community

....

Saul, who was now called Paul, and his companion
Barnabas were warmly welcomed by the Church. The
conversions thej' had effected, and particularly their
success among the actual pagans, could not but arouse
the deepest interest. A problem, however, which had
already presented itself in the community of Antioch, now
assumed an urgent character. Under what conditions
could they accept these new converts, drawn either
directly from the heathen ranks or from the Jewish
prosehtes? Was it necessary to impose upon them all
the religious obligations which bound Jews by birth, and,
above all, must they submit to circumcision? Many, and
especially the missionaries themselves, thought not. Other
influential people were inclined to be stricter. Dissensions
arose, and it was agreed to appeal to the apostles and
"elders" at Jerusalem. A deputation set out from
Antioch for the Holy City, Paul and Barnabas being of
the number. At first they met with very decided opposi-
tion, as may be imagined in such surroundings. But those
in authority, especially Peter, John, and James, the
brother of the Lord, sided with Paul and Barnabas, and
their view prevailed.

Judas Barsabbas and Silas, two members
of the Church at Jerusalem, carried a letter notifying this
decision to the Church at Antioch.

....

The Jewish converts, except in Palestine,
were already in a minority, which diminished as time went
on.

....

He [Paul]set out at once for Asia

....

On his way through Lycaonia
he picked up a valuable assistant, Timothy, the son of a
Greek father and a Jewish mother. He had him circum-
cised, for he knew how to bend to circumstances, and had
no wish to create unnecessary difficulties

....

And besides
Ephesus, many other places in Asia Minor were now
initiated into the Gospel my.steries. At last the apostle
determined to return once more to Syria, but not without
first visiting his Christian colonies in Macedonia and
Achaia. He wintered at Corinth (57-58 A.D.), and in the following spring, passing through Macedonia and by the
coast of Asia, he definitely set sail for Phenicia and
Palestine. About the Feast of Pentecost (58 A.D.)^ he
arrived at Jerusalem.

Paul thus returned to the cradle of Christianity, after
long years spent in preaching the Gospel in distant lands,
where no one else had as yet brought the " good news."
He had laid solid and living foundations throughout the
greater part of Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Achaia.
Thanks to him, the great towns of Ephesus, Thessalonica,
and Corinth, and many others also, had churches glowing
with faith, zeal, and charity. What these great achieve-
ments had cost him may be imagined ; indeed he tells
us something of it in one of his letters;^ besides all the
necessary inconveniences of long journeys, hunger and
thirst, brigands and shipwrecks, he enumerates the results
of his conflicts with the authorities, scourgings, stonings,
" stripes above measure." The apostle was also a martyr.
No one else had laboured or suffered more for the
common faith. He brought to the mother church of
Jerusalem the homage of his new foundations, and also,
in token of their respectful love, a large tribute in alms.
Yet he was far from hopeful as to the welcome awaiting
him, and his misgivings, as was soon seen, were but too
well founded.
The narrow spirit, which Paul's broad - minded
tendency had encountered ten years ago, had been over-
come in Antioch, but in Jerusalem things were very
different. The apostles had long quitted the Holy City.
And if in such surroundings there had ever been any men
with a wider outlook, they seem to have followed the
apostles, and had either migrated to Antioch or had taken
to mission work. Thus left to themselves, the old conser-
vatives could not but become more inveterately rigid. At their head was James, the brother of the Lord, who had
been held in high esteem from the days of the first
apostles, and had with them ruled the local church. He
was renowned for sanctity and profoundly pious, but
deeply attached to Jewish customs, and little inclined to
minimize their obligatory character.

Over these conflicts and crises the peace-making book
of the Acts passes very lightly.

....

Paul was welcomed by his friends, and presented
himself before James the day after his arrival. There he
found the council of " elders " assembled, and he told them
of his apostolic journeys, of the churches which he had
founded, and no doubt handed over to them at the same
time the proceeds of the collection he had made for the
needs of the mother-church. When he had finished, they
began by congratulating him. Then they called his
attention to the great number of Jewish converts,^ to their
extreme devotion to the Law, and to the unfortunate
reputation which he (Paul) had amongst them.

....

But, at any rate, they distributed their hatred with
impartiality, for James also, James the Judaizer, the head
of the Judaizing Church, suffered from it. In 62 A.D.
the high priest Annas the younger, taking advantage of
the death of the procurator Festus, summoned James,
with several other Christians, before the Sanhedrim, as
violators of the Law, and sentenced them to be stoned.
This sentence was immediately executed.

....
chapter 4

The Judaic-
Christians, who, of the two, preferred the Law, and only
consented to the evangelization of the Gentiles under
exceptional circumstances, were soon out of the main
stream of opinion ; in the 2nd century they were
classed with heretics.
....


quote:

Chapter 5
....
Towards the middle of the 2nd century, the monarchical
episcopate also comes before us as an undisputed
fact of received tradition, in the Western Christian com-
munities of Rome, Lyons, Corinth, Athens, and Crete, as
well as in more Eastern provinces. Nowhere is there a
trace of any protest against a sudden and revolutionary
change, transferring the government from a college of
bishops to that of a single monarchical ruler. From the
2nd century onward ó in some places at least ó it was possible for them to name the bishops linking them to
the apostles. Hegesippus, who travelled from church to
church, made in various places a collection of lists of
bishops, or drew them up himself from local recollections
and documents. The line of succession of the bishops of
Rome dates back to St Peter and St Paul, and is known to
us through St Irenaeus ; that of Athens, dating back to
Dionysius the Areopagite, is given by St Dionysius of
Corinth. In Rome, the episcopal succession was so well
known, and its chronology so clear, that it served to fix
the date of other events. It was said of different heresies,
that they appeared under Anicetus, or Pius, or Hyginus.
In the discussion as to the observance of Easter, Irenaeus
fixed a date in the same way, going back farther still, to
Telesphorus and to Xystus I., that is to the time of Trajan
and of St Ignatius.

What conclusion can be drawn from all this, if not that
the system of government by a monarchical bishop was
already in existence, in countries west of Asia, at the time
when such books were written as the Shepherd of Hennas
or the Second Epistle of Clement, the Teaching of the
Apostles, and the First Epistle of St Clement ; and that,
therefore, the testimony of these old writers to the col-
legiate episcopate does not preclude the existence of the monarchical episcopate? Towards the end of the 2nd
century, the author of the Muratorian Canon said of
Hermas, that he wrote a short time before, under the
episcopate of his brother Pius : nuperrime, temporibus
nostris, sedente cathetra (sic) urbis Romae ecclesiae Pio
episcopo fratre eius. Thus Hermas seems only to know of
the collegiate episcopate, yet writes under a monarchical
bishop, his own brother. About the time of Commodus,
a Modalist teacher was cited more than once to appear
before the ecclesiastical authority of Smyrna. Hippolytus,
who recounts the event ^ uses the expression " the priests "
(ot irpecr/SvTepoi). Yet it is quite certain that Smyrna
then had a bishop. Moreover, the collegiate episcopate,
which was certainly the original system in more places
than one, was not likely to be the final form : it had to
modify itself very soon. Government cannot be carried
on by commission, unless presided over by a head who
has it well in hand, who inspires it, guides it, and acts in
its name. Probably the members of these episcopal
colleges in primitive times were rather more on an
equality with their president, than are canons of our day
with their bishop. According to the rather confused
memories which tradition has transmitted to us, they for
long retained the power of ordination, which now especially
characterises the episcopal dignity. The priests of
Alexandria in replacing their dead bishop, not only
elected, but also consecrated his successor.- This custom
no doubt dated from a time when Egypt had no church
but that of Alexandria. It would not be surprising to
find that the same circumstances had led to the same
results in Antioch, Rome, and Lyons, and in fact, in
every place where the local churches had a very wide
jurisdiction.

We are thus able to explain the custom of designat-
ing both the president and his counsellors by a common denomination. We ourselves speak of the clergy, the
priests, of a parish, although there is considerable differ-
ence between the authority of the parish priest and that
of his curates. In like manner, when they spoke of the
priests of Rome, or the bishops of Corinth, the term
covered both the higher grades of the hierarchy. But
the natural course of events tended to concentrate the
authority in the hands of one person, and this change,
if change there were, was one of those which come about
of themselves, insensibly, without anything like a revolu-
tion. The president of the episcopal council in Rome,
Alexandria, Antioch, and many other places, stood out
sufficiently from his colleagues to be separately and
easily remembered. The Church of God which " dwells
in Rome" may have inherited the supreme authority of
its apostolic founders in a diffused form ; this authority
concentrated itself in the priest-bishops as a body, and
one of them embodied it more specially, and exercised
it. Between this president, and the one monarchical
bishop of succeeding centuries, there is no difference in
principle.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 4:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 910
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 475 of 478 (776879)
01-21-2016 9:38 PM


More history showing James' group
Once I get done, about 1/3 of the first 97 pages will be included here (I suspect I will get suspended for this, but Faith can't just keep on acting like the Roman church followed the apostles). I don't agree with the slant of this historian, but at least it's a history that takes notice of who the circle of followers of James was (I'm sure the suthor would ignore it if he could). It wasn't the Roman church, that Faith defends.

quote:

After Jesus Himself, only St Stephen, James,
the son of Zebedee, and James the brother of the Lord,
are mentioned as suffering the extreme penalty

....

On the death of Agrippa I. (44 A.D.) his kingdom had
been restored to the procurators. But from 50 A.D. his
son, Agrippa II., who was a favourite of the Emperor
Claudius, obtained not only the little principality of
Chalcis, in Anti-Lebanon, but also was given power of
control over the temple, and the privilege of nominating
the high priest. Three years later, his principality was
exchanged for a kingdom beyond the Jordan, formed for
him out of Philip's late tetrarchy, and part of that of
Antipas. The Christians had no reason to complain of
him. Indeed, during St Paul's trial before the Roman
procurator, he showed himself on the whole favourable to
the prisoner ; and when St James, the brother of the
Lord, was stoned by the order of Hanan the younger the
high priest, Agrippa, in his indignation at once deposed the pontiff. And during the insurrection the Christian
community took refuge in his domain. This kindly prince
hved till lOO A.D.

But the position of Palestinian Christianity is peculiar.
It should therefore not detain us from a survey of the
empire as a whole. Let us see what chances of external
security the Church is likely to meet with there.

....

CHAPTER IX

THE END OF JUDAIC-CHRISTIANITY

Death of James, "the brother of the Lord." Insurrection of 66 A.D,
The Church's migration from Jerusalem. Revolt of Bar-
Kocheba : Aelia Capitolina. Judaic-Christian bishops. The
Gospel according to the Hebrews. Connection with other
Christians. Hegesippus. Ebionites. Elkesaites.

Whilst St Paul's case was being tried in Rome before
the imperial tribunal, the Judaic-Christian Church at
Jerusalem was passing through a serious crisis. Festus
the procurator had just died, and it was some time before
his successor Albinus could reach Palestine. This led to
an interval of confusion and anarchy. The high-priest
at the time was Hanan II., the son of the Hanan (Annas)
of the Passion, and a relative of the Ananias men-
tioned in the story of St Paul.^ Like them, he detested
the " Nazarenes." Eagerly seizing his opportunity, he
attacked their local head, James, the " brother of the Lord,"
a man who seems to have been universally revered in
Jerusalem, by Jews as well as Christians. His austerities
and his protracted prayers in the Temple were long
renowned. The people named him the Just, the bulwark
of the people (Obliam). But this did not save him from the
malice of the high-priests. Hanan assembled the Sanhe-
drim and summoned James, with several others, to appear
before it, and obtained a sentence of death against them.
James and his companions were stoned near the Temple.

Hanan paid dearly for his audacity. The procurator
on his arrival from Alexandria was appealed to, and also
King Agrippa II., who at once deposed the high-priest.

This was 62 A.D. Four years later, under the pro-
curator Gcssius Florus, who succeeded Albinus, the long
smouldering revolution broke out at Jerusalem. In the
autumn of 66 A.D. the Roman garrison was massacred, and
insurrection spread rapidly throughout Judaea and the
neighbouring countries. Cestius Gallus, the legate of
Syria, made an ineffectual attempt to re-take the holy
city. In the following year, Vespasian being sent by
Nero to repress the revolt, restored Galilee to subjection.
But the death of the emperor (68 A.D.) and the troubles
which ensued, arrested the process. Jerusalem was a prey
to factions, and went through a reign of terror. The high-
priest Ananias and all the leaders of the sacerdotal aristo-
cracy were massacred by the rioters ; fanatics and brigands
contended for the Temple and the fortresses. On all sides
anarchy, incendiary fires, and massacre prevailed. The
Holy City had become the antechamber of hell.

The Christian leaders received a heaven-sent warning,^
and the community decided to leave the town. They took
refuge at Pella, in Decapolis, in the kingdom of Agrippa II.
Pella was a Hellenic and a pagan town ; but they made the
best of it. Long afterwards Julius Africanus (c. 230) re-
ported the existence of other Judaic-Christian communities "
at Kokhaba beyond the Jordan, and also at Nazareth in Gali-
lee. I n the 4th century, there was another at Berea (Aleppo)
in north Syria.* The exact time that they migrated, and
whether from Jerusalem or from Pella, is unknown.^

This dispersion continued after the war. A return to
Jerusalem was out of the question ; it had been so com-
pletely razed to the ground, that it was difficult to
believe it had ever been inhabited, and for sixty years the
camp of the tenth legion {leg. X Fretensis) was the only
sign of life. The Emperor Hadrian decided to found a
new city on the spot, a pagan city of course, with a temple
within the precincts of the ancient sanctuary. This
profanation, similar to that of Antiochus Epiphanes, was
too much for the scattered remnant of Israel. Simon-bar-
Kocheba headed an insurrection, supported by the cele-
brated Rabbi Akiba, and gave himself out to be the long-
expected Messiah of the Jews. The Roman legion was
driven from its camp ; and for some time the Jews held
the ruins of their holy city. But Jerusalem was no longer
of any military importance ; and the headquarters of the
insurgents was at Bether. Near there they were finally
crushed, but only after three years of a sanguinary struggle
(132 to 135) which ruined and depopulated Palestine.

The Judaic-Christians could not accept Bar-Kocheba
as the Messiah of Israel ; they refused to join the revolt.
This, as may be imagined, brought misfortune upon them,
for the insurgents hunted them down remorselessly,^ till
the Roman victory gave them peace, and they resumed
their obscure existence. Hadrian's plans were carried
out. On the ruins of Jerusalem arose the colony of /Elia
Capitolina, with its theatres and pagan sanctuaries.
Jupiter's Capitol and the emperor's statue profaned the
Temple Hill. The Christian holy places did not escape ;
a temple of Venus was set up on Calvary. Any Jew
found in the new city was doomed to death. The Judaic-
Christians could but keep away ; and they did so. The
supreme authority in the Judaic-Christian world appears
to have long remained in the hands of the kinsfolk of the
Saviour : James was the " brother of the Lord " ; Simeon,
who succeeded him as head of the Church of Jerusalem,
and who lived till the time of Trajan, was also a kinsman
of Christ's. Two sons of another " brother of the Lord "

called Judas, were denounced to the authorities in Domi-
tian's time ; they were sent to Rome, and examined by
the emperor himself. He convinced himself that such
feeble folk could not be dangerous, and that the Kingdom
of Heaven was no menace to the Roman Empire. The
two sons of David were sent back home to " preside over
the churches."^ Bishop Simeon did not escape so well.
Hegesippus reports that he suffered martyrdom under
Trajan, Atticus being then (c. 107) governor of Palestine.^
In the days of Julius Africanus, well into the 3rd century,
there still survived some of these Desposyni (kinsmen of
the Lord), highly esteemed ^ amongst the Judaic-Christians.
A list of the ancient bishops of Jerusalem has been pre-
served by Eusebius,* who says that the line of succession
continued until the Jewish revolt under Hadrian (132 A.D.).
The first two are James and Simeon, who bring us down to
107 A.D. ; the remaining thirteen bishops have therefore
to be got into twenty-five years. This is a large number,
but if we accept the list, and the time-limits given by
Eusebius, the natural explanation is that the list includes
the bishops, not only of Pella but of other colonies from
the primitive Church of Jerusalem.

A more interesting relic of these early Christian days
would be the Gospel they used, if only we had it in a more
complete form. It was of course in Hebrew, or rather
was an Aramaic Gospel, translated at a comparatively early
date into Greek, when it received the title of Gospel accord-
ing to the Hebrews, Ka& 'E^palovs. St Jerome^ often
alludes to it ; the Semitic text, which he knew, he some-
times identifies with the original Hebrew of St Matthew.^
This suggests that the canonical Gospel of St Matthew bore a marked resemblance to the Gospel of" the Hebrews."
Judging by the fragments preserved, however, the differ-
ences between them were rather important. This Gospel
of the Hebrews appears to have been quite as ancient as
our Synoptics, and quite independent of them : it was
probably compiled in the community of Pella From Pella came also Aristo, the author of the dialogue
of Papiscus and Jason, a propagandist work now lost. It
represents a disputation between a Jew and a Judaic-
Christian, culminating in the conversion of the Jew.
Eusebius derived some information on Bar-Kocheba's
revolt from this dialogue which appeared soon after
that event.^

The Church of Pella, even with its colonies in Palestine
and Syria, cannot be taken as representing the whole of
Judaic-Christianity. To some extent everywhere, but
more especially in great centres like Alexandria, there
were Jewish converts to Christianity among the Jews of
the Dispersion, who did not consider themselves absolved
from the observance of the Law. They became Christians
under shelter of the great doctrinal toleration ^ which pre-
vailed in Judaism, but they did not cease to be Jews. Their
relations with the other Christians, whose existence they
certainly acknowledged, must have been much the same
as those which, to the great vexation of Paul, had been
authorised by Peter and Barnabas in Antioch. Justin*
knew Christians of this type ; he thinks they will be saved,
if they do not force Christians of a different origin to
adopt their mode of life. He acknowledges, however, that his is not the universal opinion, and that some would
not admit the Judaic-Christians to communion.

[[[[[[[[[[NOTES ^ Hegesippus, quoted by Eusebius, //. E. iii. 20.

2 Eusebius, H. E. iii. 32. The date, 107 A.D., is that of his
Chronicle. ^ Eusebius, H. E. i. 7. * B. E. iv. 5.

'" St Epiphanius {Haer. xxix. 9) knew of its existence, but refers
to it as though he had not seen it.

* St Epiphanius does so also. From the time of Papias, a Hebrew
version of Matthew is referred to which no one had seen, but which
was, not unnaturally, identified with some such Gospel as that of the
Nazarenes. END NOTES]

Justin speaks only of individuals : he says nothing of
Judaic-Christian communities, nor of their relations with
the representatives of the main body of the Church.
Ilegesippus, at the close of the 2nd century, goes
rather more into detail. He describes the " Church,"
that is " the Church of Jerusalem," as being, at first, faithful
to tradition, but afterwards riddled with heresies. The
first of these originated with a certain Thebuthis, who was
disappointed at not being elected bishop. According
to Hegesippus, these heresies were connected with
the different Jewish sects, Essenes, Galileans, Hemero-
baptists, Masbotheans, Samaritans, Sadducees, and
Pharisees. This list includes rather heterogeneous ele-
ments, but broadly speaking the idea is correct, and is
confirmed by facts. Like the Judaism from which it sprang,
the Judaic-Christian Church attached an exaggerated im-
portance to the ordinances of the Law, and was not
sufficiently on its guard against doctrinal speculations.

Hegesippus was himself a Judaic-Christian. That was
the impression of Eusebius, who had read all he wrote ; and
it is confirmed by his use of the Gospel of the Hebrews,
by his language, which is full of Hebrew words, and by his
familiarity with the history of the Church of Jerusalem.

He evidently regarded that Church as orthodox and
worthy of all respect. But nevertheless he did not feel
out of his element in the Corinthian or Roman communi-
ties. He investigated their episcopal succession, and the
way they preserved primitive traditions. According to
him, all their customs were in accordance with what the
Law, the Prophets, and the Lord had taught.

But the optimist views of Justin and Hegesippus did
not affect orthodox tradition. Later, with St Irenaeus
and Origen ^ an unfavourable opinion of the Judaic-Christians prevailed. These authors regard Judaic-
Christianity as but a sect, the sect of the Ebionites or
Ebioneans, '^^loouaioi. This term, which later was
derived from the name of an imaginary founder, Ebion,
really signified poor. From the beginning, the Judaic-
Christians of Syria had been called Nazarenes.^ This name
appears in the Acts;^ it was evidently derived from that
of the Lord, " Jesus of Nazareth." Possibly they called
themselves so, or others called them Ediouim, without
intending any disparagement. Does not the Gospel say :
"Blessed are the poor!"^ Later, the controversalists of
the main body of the Church, proud of their transcendent
Christology, connected the notion of poverty of doctrine
with the name and used it as a nickname. Origen
recognized, though it seems to have escaped St Irenaeus'
notice, that in their case it was not a question of any real
heresy, such as those of Cerinthus or Carpocrates, but
merely of a late survival of an undeveloped primitive
Judaic-Christianity. In St Irenaeus' description the
Ebionites are characterized by their fidelity to the Mosaic
ordinances,* circumcision, and the rest ; they hold Jerusalem
in great veneration, and turn towards it to pray ; and their
belief that the world was created by God Himself dis-
tinguishes them from all the gnostic sects. Above all
they cling to the Law ; the Prophets they treat with much
subtle explanation.^ So much for their Judaism. As to
their Christianity, it was observed that they had but one
Gospel, St Matthew,^ that they rejected the epistles of St

[[[[[[[[[NOTES

This is the term employed by St Epiphanius, notably in the
chapter (xxix.) of his Panariutn devoted to this sect. The name
Ebioneans is used by him to denote a particular heretical system of
which we shall hear more. St Jerome generally employs the term
Nazarenes to denote the Judaic-Christians, but evidently he regards
Ebionites and Nazarenes as the same.

- Acts xxiv. 5. 2 St Luke vi. 20 ; St Matt. v. 3.

* In the account in the Philosophumena^ it is said that Jesus
received that name, and the name " The Christ of God," on account of
his fidelity to the Law.

^ "Quae autem sunt prophetica, curiosius exponere nituntur.''

* A confusion with the Gospel of the Hebrews.
END NOTES]

Paul, whom they regarded as an apostate, and that they
considered the Saviour as the son of Joseph. On this point,
however, opinions differed. Origen says the miraculous
birth was accepted by some, but rejected by others.

Thus, being shut up in the Law, the Judaic-Christians
were led insensibly to separate themselves from the main
body of the Church. And in spite of the sympathetic
attitude of some individuals, this separation was already
apparent by the close of the 2nd century.

It had even led to controversy. Towards the end
of the 2nd century, a certain Symmachus, an Ebionite,
known by his Greek version of the Old Testament, wrote to
defend the position taken up by his co-religionists against
other Christians.! There were Ebionites scattered almost
everywhere in the great Jewish colonies. In Trajan's time
the Greek version of their Gospel was already known in
Egypt ; and the name given to it, " Gospel according to
the Hebrews," was doubtless intended to distinguish it
from another Gospel accepted there, " the Gospel accord-
ing to the Egyptians," used in the Christian community
of Alexandria.

Still furtheroff, amongst the peoples of southern Arabia ó
where Judaism had already made, and continued to make,
many converts ó the preaching of the Gospel had taken the
Judaic-Christian form. Pantaenus, who visited them about
the time of Marcus Aurelius, found the Hebrew Gospel ^
in use, and was told that the Apostle Bartholomew, the first missionary to these distant lands, had brought it
to them.

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[NOTES

1 Eusebius, H. E. vi. i6, 17, where we learn that Origen had
these books from a lady named Juliana (of Ca^sarea in Cappadocia,
cf. Palladius, H. Laus. 147), who had received them as a legacy from
Symmachus himself. Various Latin authors of the 4th and 5th
centuries knew the Symmachians as a sect of Judaic-Christians.
(Victorinus rhet.. In Gal. i. 19 ; ii. 26 ; Philastrius, Haer. 62 ;
Ambrosiast., In Gal., prologue ; Saint Augustine, Contra Faustum^
xix. 4, 17; Contra Crescoftimn, i. 31). In the time of St Augustine,
this sect counted but a very small number of adherents. St Epi-
phanius, De mens, et pond. 18, xg, tells us that Symmachus was a
Samaritan convert to Judaism. But he alone mentions the fact. Cf.
Harnack, Chronologic^ ii., 164 ; H. E. v. 10.

- Eusebius, who tells us this, identifies, as was customary, this
Hebrew Gospel with the original Gospel of St Matthew.

END NOTES]

Nevertheless, the Judaic Church remained small, even
when those of the dispersion were included. Doubtless it
suffered, under Trajan and Hadrian, from the calamities
which befell the Jewish nation. In the time of Origen, it
was of comparatively small account. The great com-
mentator rejects^ the notion that by the 144,000 elect
of Israel, in the Apocalypse, the Judaic-Christians could
be meant ; the number appears to him far too high.
Origen wrote after two centuries of Christianity, so
his estimate would cover five or six generations.
He cannot have thought the Judaic -Christians very
numerous.

In the 4th century there were still Nazarenes. They
are referred to by Eusebius, St Epiphanius, above all
by St Jerome, chiefly in connection with their Gospel.
The allusions to their doctrine are not in very favourable
terms.- Now and then traces of the influence of the main
Church can be discerned amongst them, and even of some
attempt at a drawing together. A fusion no doubt did
take place, but only on the part of individuals. None of
the Judaic-Christian communities were received as such
into the oriental patriarchates. Thus Judaic-Christianity
died out in misery and in obscurity. As the Church
developed in the Greco-Roman world she left her cradle
behind. Emancipation from Judaic-Christianity was as
necessary as from pure Judaism. St Paul, on his last
journey to Jerusalem, suffered both from the brutality of
the Jews and the malevolence of the Judaic-Christians ; he found a refuge and comparative safety amongst the
Romans. This is symboh'c of the whole situation.

But St Paul had not only had to deal with legalist
Jews. He also encountered a subtilized form of
Judaism which had added peculiar rites and ascetic
practices to the Mosaic ordinances, whilst it supplemented
the simple faith of Israel with high-flown religious and
philosophic speculations. The Essenes in Palestine, and
Philo, and others of his type, among the Dispersion,
represent different aspects of this tendency to develop
received tradition. The same tendency affected the
primitive Christian communities. The teachers whom
St Paul opposed in his Asiatic letters were connected with
this sublimated form of Judaism ó as were also those with
whom St Ignatius had dealings later on. It finds its
special expression in the doctrines of Cerinthus. In the
2nd century, it appears that this movement had abated a
little ; at any rate it is not discernible amidst the din of
the Gnostic sects. A hundred years after Cerinthus and
St Ignatius, there was a revival of this type of Judaic-
Christian preaching.^ In the time of Pope Callistus
(217-222 A.D.) a certain Alcibiades, coming from Apamea,
in Syria, represented the movement in Rome. He
brought with him a mysterious book, said to have been
given in the mythical land of Seres to a good man named
Elkesai, about the third year of Trajan's reign (100 A.D,).^
Elkesai had received it from an angel thirty leagues high,
called the Son of God ; beside whom was a female being
of the same dimensions, called the Holy Spirit.^ This revelation was nothing but a preaching of repentance, or
rather of purification by baptism, incessantly renewed.
The initiate immersed himself in the water, invoking the
seven witnesses, that is. Heaven, Water, the Holy Spirits,
and the Angels of Prayer, Oil, Salt, and Earth. This
ceremony not only purified from sin, but cured madness
and other diseases. The prescribed formulas were com-
posed of Syriac words, said backwards.

This sect does not appear to have met with much
success outside the country of its origin, where it had
more than one form no doubt, for St Epiphanius knew
several varieties of it, described as Ossenes, Ebionites, and
Sampsaeans. In his day it was confined to the countries
lying east of the Dead Sea and the Jordan. Two women
still remained of the family of Elkesai, Marthus and
Marthana, whom their co-religionists held in great
veneration.

These sectarians observed the Jewish rites, but had
views of their own on the Scripture canon. They repudi-
ated the Prophets and eliminated from the Law all reference
to sacrifice. They scouted the Apostle Paul and rejected
his letters. Their New Testament opened with a Gospel,
of which St Epiphanius has preserved fragments. The
text claimed to have been compiled by St Matthew,^ in
the name of the twelve Apostles. There were also stories
about the apostles, contained in special books, such as the
Preaching of Peter, from which the Clementines- were derived, and the " Ascensions of James," quoted by St
Epiphanius. The teaching of all these writings is strongly
ascetic, especially as to vegetarian food and an abhorrence
of wine. Even in the Eucharist, water replaced wine.
Their Christology resembled that of the Ebionites and
Cerinthus : Jesus, the Son of Joseph and Mary,^ became
Divine at his baptism, by union with the aeon Christ.
This aeon was by some identified with the Holy Spirit,
by others with Adam, or with one of the higher angels,
created before all other creatures, who had previously been
incarnate in Adam, and in other Old Testament
personages. On the connection of this Christ with the
angel called the Son of God they do not enlighten us.

[[[[[[[[notes

^ We must not confuse this rather late production with the Gospel
of the Hebrews, mentioned later, nor more particularly with the
very ancient collection of Logia mentioned by Papias, and apparently
one of the sources of our own canonical Gospel of St Matthew.
Fabricators of apocryphal documents have specially exploited the
name of this apostle. Clement of Alexandria {Paedag. ii. i) de-
scribes St Matthew as a professed vegetarian. Whence he derived
this notion I know not, but it would be specially likely to attract the
Elkesaites.

^ Recent researches on the Clementines (Waitz, Die Pseudokle-
mentinen, in the Texte und Unt., vol. xxv., fasc. 4 ; cf. Harnack,
Chronologie, ii., p. 518 et seq.) show that the genealogy of these
documents was as follows. First came a book called the Preaching of
Peter, composed at the end of the 2nd, or the beginning of the 3rd
end notes]

These doctrines and practices were not really anything
new. They were but a revival of the old " Jewish fables "
of St Paul's day, tricked out as a fresh revelation, and
bolstered up by new writings specially composed for the
purpose.

century ; the preface was formed of the letter of Peter to James, with
the protest


Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
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Message 476 of 478 (776880)
01-21-2016 9:46 PM


James the Judaizer
quote:

But, at any rate, they distributed their hatred with
impartiality, for James also, James the Judaizer, the head
of the Judaizing Church, suffered from it. In 62 A.D.
the high priest Annas the younger, taking advantage of
the death of the procurator Festus, summoned James,
with several other Christians, before the Sanhedrim, as
violators of the Law, and sentenced them to be stoned.
This sentence was immediately executed.
....
chapter 4

The Judaic-
Christians, who, of the two, preferred the Law, and only
consented to the evangelization of the Gentiles under
exceptional circumstances, were soon out of the main
stream of opinion ; in the 2nd century they were
classed with heretics.


quote:

Acts 15
Acts 15New International Version (NIV)

The Council at Jerusalem

15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: ďUnless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.Ē 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, ďThe Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.Ē

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ďBrothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.Ē

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. ďBrothers,Ē he said, ďlisten to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16
ďĎAfter this I will return
and rebuild Davidís fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,

17
that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these thingsí

18
things known from long ago.

19 ďIt is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.Ē

The Councilís Letter to Gentile Believers

22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Pauló 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.


quote:

Acts 21
Paul Visits James at Jerusalem

17 When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, ďYou see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[e] and from fornication.Ē 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them.


James the heretic.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Admin
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Posts: 12533
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Message 477 of 478 (776894)
01-22-2016 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by LamarkNewAge
01-21-2016 9:46 PM


Moderator Concern
From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(6)
Message 478 of 478 (776914)
01-22-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Admin
01-22-2016 8:04 AM


Re: Moderator Concern
7. And don't do it anyway because nobody, but nobody reads it. The only surer way of being ignored is to link to 3 blogs and 2 Youtube videos.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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