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Author Topic:   13th century rabbi says universe billions of years old
OrthodoxJew
Junior Member (Idle past 2954 days)
Posts: 7
From: Jerusalem, Israel
Joined: 01-25-2016


Message 1 of 60 (777501)
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


The Talmud (Sanhedrin 97a) says, "The world will exist for 6,000 years, and in the 7,000th year, it will be destroyed." "Sefer Ha-Temunah", a first-century Kabbalistic book by Rabbi Nehumia ben Ha-Kanah, expresses the view - not universally held - that the 7,000 years of Sanhedrin 97a run parallel to the Jewish Sabbatical cycle, in which the fields are planted for six years and left unplanted in the seventh (Leviticus 25:4). After seven Sabbatical years comes the Jubilee year (every 50th year), whose laws are similar to those of the Sabbatical year (Leviticus 25:11). The 7,000 years are thus one Sabbatical cycle within the Jubilee cycle, and the universe must exist for a total of 49,000 years. (Yes, I know that's not 15 billion years. I'm getting to that.) There is a difference of opinion regarding which Sabbatical cycle we are currently in: Derush Ohr Ha-Hayim says that we are in the second cycle, whereas Livnat Ha-Sapir says we're in the seventh. According to these opinions, then, the world would have been, respectively, either 7,000 or 42,000 years old when Adam and Eve were created.
In the 13th century, Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the insight that, since Sabbatical cycles existed before man was created, time before Adam and Eve must be measured in divine years, not human years. Psalm 90:4 says, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night." Rabbi Isaac of Akko - who held like Livnat Ha-Sapir, that we are in the seventh Sabbatical cycle - therefore took the above figure of 42,000 years and multiplied it by 365,250 (he was using a 365.25-day year) to get 15,340,500,000 years for the age of the universe when Adam was created. This is roughly in line with what modern science is saying (15 billion years, give or take a couple billion), and Rabbi Isaac of Akko came up with it four centuries before the telescope was invented. (Today we know that there are 365.242199 days in a year. Thus, on the secular calendar, the leap year is withheld in years ending in 00, unless the year is also divisible by 400. Rabbi Isaac of Akko's calculation is thus refined to 15,340,172,358 years.)

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
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Message 2 of 60 (777503)
02-02-2016 7:26 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the 13th century rabbi says universe billions of years old thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 3 of 60 (777504)
02-02-2016 7:40 PM


Interesting but as irrelevant and wrong headed as the Young Earth crowd. Trying to determine reality from mythos instead of the rocks is simply mental masturbation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 60 (777509)
02-02-2016 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


What predictions, other than the age of the universe, can we derive from this number crunching? Cam we conclude that the earth itself is nearly 15 billion years old?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 60 (777511)
02-02-2016 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


The rabbis are known for their exacting precision in their approach to the scriptures but I'm not sure it ever yielded much in the practical world. Jesus was always criticizing them for their concern over gnats in the soup and tithing the cumin to exactitude (and I'd add, getting every microscopic particle of leaven out of the house before Passover -- Pesach?) , while greater matters were left undone.
But be that whatever it may be, what makes me curious is the first prediction you mention of the 7000th year as the time when the world is to be destroyed:
The Talmud (Sanhedrin 97a) says, "The world will exist for 6,000 years, and in the 7,000th year, it will be destroyed."
I see there are variations even on that but apparently there is also a tradition of using the straight counting of the years? So what I'd like to know is when this 7000th year is expected to arrive? (I'm curious of course because the Christian churches are right now more sure than they've ever been before that we are in the very last of the last days).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 20 by OrthodoxJew, posted 02-04-2016 10:52 AM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 6 of 60 (777512)
02-02-2016 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this information.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 60 (777515)
02-03-2016 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


Hello, OrthodoxJew, and welcome to EvC.
"The world will exist for 6,000 years, and in the 7,000th year, it will be destroyed."
Right out of the box you have destroyed any credibility for your post with me with this statement.
So if the world will only exist for 6000 years what do we have in years 6001 thru 7000 when the world is destroyed? Is the world in some kind of state of non-existence for that last thousand years before it is destroyed? Do we have a Schrdinger's cat world that doesn't exist before it is destroyed? How does a world that had stopped existing at year 6000 get destroyed at year 7000?
The rest of your message is more of the same. Second cycle? Seventh? Four hundred-thirty first? Which doesn't make any difference since the world which didn't exist after 6000 years was later on destroyed anyway. Just fun with numbers with no justifiable base.
As I said earlier, welcome to the EvC Forum. Why are you here?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 60 (777517)
02-03-2016 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AZPaul3
02-03-2016 1:01 AM


So if the world will only exist for 6000 years what do we have in years 6001 thru 7000 when the world is destroyed?
My guess is that he simply misspoke and will correct the error when he returns. However it may have implications for the Christian point of view that has Jesus coming back before a time period known as The Millennium, during which He reigns on earth from Jerusalem, after which it is all destroyed. Orthodox Jew must reject any ideas of Jesus of course, but perhaps the rabbis said something that fits with the idea of the Millennium reign of the Messiah.
Why are you here?
The same reason all us creationists are here of course. He believes in God, he believes the Bible reveals the truth about history, and he hopes to be able to persuade those of the antibiblical viewpoint. Fat chance of course, but oh well... Except in this case he is offering what he considers to be evidence on YOUR side. That isn't going to cut it either, though.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 60 (777525)
02-03-2016 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
02-02-2016 11:03 PM


The rabbis are known for their exacting precision in their approach to the scriptures but I'm not sure it ever yielded much in the practical world. Jesus was always criticizing them for their concern over gnats in the soup and tithing the cumin to exactitude (and I'd add, getting every microscopic particle of leaven out of the house before Passover -- Pesach?) , while greater matters were left undone.
Well, to be fair his criticism seemed specific to the Sanhedrin which was run by Pharisees, with elements of Sadducees in there... Not sure if it's an indictment particular to all rabbi's. My point is that i'm not sure Jesus would have had a problem with an Essene rabbi.
As for your comments about their exacting nature while neglecting more relevant issues, I agree. It's pointless speculation that detracts from the overall message.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 60 (777529)
02-03-2016 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2016 1:49 AM


I guess I should have said Pharisees, because they wrote the Talmud.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 60 (777535)
02-03-2016 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


It's sort of interesting that one of them came up with roughly the right age. However, the underlying reasoning seems somewhat dodgy, and I don't see anything to lift it up above the level of a minor coincidence.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 60 (777537)
02-03-2016 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


[ Please ignore - I misinterpreted the last part of the section I quoted. --Percy ]
May as well pile on:
OrthodoxJew writes:
Rabbi Isaac of Akko - who held like Livnat Ha-Sapir, that we are in the seventh Sabbatical cycle - therefore took the above figure of 42,000 years and multiplied it by 365,250 (he was using a 365.25-day year) to get 15,340,500,000 years for the age of the universe when Adam was created.
Adam was created more than 15 billion years ago? That makes him older than the planet he lived on.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add "ignore" comment.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2016 10:05 AM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 60 (777538)
02-03-2016 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
02-03-2016 9:36 AM


Adam was created more than 15 billion years ago? That makes him older than the planet he lived on.
That's not what the paragraph you quoted said.
quote:
to get 15,340,500,000 years for the age of the universe when Adam was created.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 02-03-2016 9:36 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 02-03-2016 10:12 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 02-03-2016 11:33 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 60 (777539)
02-03-2016 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by NoNukes
02-03-2016 10:05 AM


Hey, you're right. I thought Percy had discovered a weird mistake.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 15 of 60 (777541)
02-03-2016 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by OrthodoxJew
02-02-2016 7:20 PM


So, let's extrapolate a bit.
1 divine day = 1000 Earth years
therefore, 1 divine year = 365,250 Earth years
So, 1 Sabbatical cycle (7000 years?) = 2,556,750,000 Earth years.
Does that mean there will be 2,556,750,000 years between Creation and Destruction? That's a long time.
I suppose a lot of time may have passed between the Creation and the Fall, but these numbers would suggest that we likely still have a long time to go before Destruction.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

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Replies to this message:
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