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Author | Topic: 2014 was hotter than 1998. 2015 data in yet? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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They differ in their reliability (always on or intermittent) and their power density (how much energy you can suck out per unit). They also differ in how their consumption impacts the atmosphere...
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
I'm skeptical of your figures. 100 km2 is about 3% of NYC's area... 3% of my yard would be about 225 square feet. At 16 watts per square foot that's 3600 watts, which is about half the electrical capacity that my house has now - and it's an old house a big yard. Even Queens would probably produce less energy per square foot. Do you have anything but hand-waving to show that solar will scale to NYC?
ProtoTypical writes:
If a "solution" doesn't work, it doesn't really matter how much money it saves.
... and it will cost less than not doing it.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Did Jon present his plan yet?
Did it consist of three words, and was the middle one "baby"? Just asking.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Love your enemies!
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I'm skeptical of your figures. Yeah me too. Let's try a visual representation.
Taken from here. Edited by ProtoTypical, : add source
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
Cute. But it doesn't address anything I've said. It's just more hand-waving. Let's try a visual representation. HOW would you transmit power from the Sahara Desert to Europe? I've asked an even simpler question: HOW would you transmit power from frickin' Queens to NYC? Nuts and bolts. HOW?
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Jon Inactive Member
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I think we all know how: on power lines.
The real problem with transmitting electricity long distances is transmission loss. How much power do you have to generate in North Africa in order to still have what you need for the consumers by the time it reaches South Africa? Anyone know the math used to calculate these losses? Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
I initially thought the land requirement estimates were somewhat in the ballpark. Then I noticed this:
The definition of "power" covers the fuel required to run all electrical consumption, all machinery, and all forms of transportation. If we need to basically turn everything electrical and then power it with solar panels, it will take way more solar panels than they have estimated. But jumping from nothing to the world is kind of putting the cart before the horse. We would be better to start with a discussion of something on a smaller scale, such as New York City. How much electricity does NYC use?Love your enemies!
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined:
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Right now we transmit power to NYC from the middle of Quebec. The losses would be less if the power was generated closer.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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Let me try some less wrong numbers.
How much electricity does NYC use? The entire state of NY used 143,401 Gwh in 2013. http://www.ipsr.ku.edu/ksdata/ksah/energy/18ener7.pdf You need about 16000m2/Gw of solar production at 20% efficiency. That comes to 2294km2 for the state. NYC has 42% of the state population so they need 963km2. The area of NYC is 789km2. So say that you collect a quarter of the power right in the city in viable spaces and the rest within a couple hundred kms. It wouldn't even be hard. Give the US army a day off and you could pay for the whole thing. Here is a good report
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Anyone know the math used to calculate these losses? Transmission losses are primarily just heating looses that are proportional to the distance transmitted, and which decrease as the voltage of transmission is increased. They are calculated using Ohm's law. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8558 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Yes, I remember.
Transmitdental mediation. Ooohmm, ooohmm, ooohmm. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Right now we transmit power to NYC from the middle of Quebec. The losses would be less if the power was generated closer. Exactly. And more generally, just how much power do people think is actually generated inside of Manhattan using conventional sources anyway? List of power stations in New York List of power stations in New York - Wikipedia Only Manhattan source listed:
quote: The question how do we get power from Queens to NYC is a bit of a strange one. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Jon Inactive Member |
I haven't bothered looking up numbers for the city itself, but as a state, New York gets a large share of its electricity from hydro dams and nuclear plants.
The question how do we get power from Queens to NYC is a bit of a strange one. Strange. But important. If folks don't understand how we get electricity the short distance from Queens to NYC, is it even worth trying to ask them how they plan to get it from the deserts of California to Juneau? Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If folks don't understand how we get electricity the short distance from Queens to NYC, is it even worth trying to ask them how they plan to get it from the deserts of California to Juneau? It seems that there aren't very many participants around who don't understand the process. Electricity is routinely transmitted from one state to another and even between Canada and the US. What lack of knowledge did the question uncover? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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