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Author Topic:   Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's dead. The maneuvering begins!
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 122 (777989)
02-13-2016 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
02-13-2016 7:35 PM


The longest time ever from nomination final Senate action is 125 days, for Mr Justice Louis Brandeis. As of today, there are 269 days until election day. I'd like to think that the majority of the population would protest a delay of that length, but the irrational level of hatred of all things Obama that teabaggers voice, I wouldn't venture to guess one way or another.
Replacing Scalia with an Obama appointee has the potential for markedly changing the court in a way Republicans could not possibly like. Republicans are arguing that waiting until the election would give the people a say, but of course, Democrats can point out that issue has been decided by Obama winning the last election.
The current Supreme Court term ends in June or July, but the justices work on stuff for the next session which starts up in October. I think the better argument based on the work schedule is to get a Justice in now.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 02-13-2016 7:35 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-13-2016 11:41 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 8 by Diomedes, posted 02-14-2016 12:11 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 10 by JonF, posted 02-14-2016 8:33 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 36 by subbie, posted 02-15-2016 7:52 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 122 (778010)
02-14-2016 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
02-14-2016 10:12 AM


Today's New York Times eulogizes Scalia and describes him as a man of towering conservative influence
I read the eulogy and I note the fairly faint praise. Example:
quote:
By the time he wrote his most important majority opinion, finding that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, even the dissenters were engaged in trying to determine the original meaning of the Constitution, the approach he had championed.
That was primarily because in DC v Helller Scalia departed from original meaning and relied on history in pretty much the same way he had bashed others for doing. I suspect that fans of Scalia might find more flattering eulogies someplace other than the New York Times.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 02-14-2016 10:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 02-14-2016 2:05 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 122 (778011)
02-14-2016 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ramoss
02-14-2016 1:18 PM


I'm sure that the candidates would love to use "picking Scalia's replacement" as a get out the vote strategy. I cringe when I think of Cruz replacing one of the current less conservative Justices. I assume that tea baggers are just as much in a frenzy over the possibility of Obama, Clinton, or Bernie picking Scalia's replacement.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ramoss, posted 02-14-2016 1:18 PM ramoss has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 122 (778028)
02-14-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by vimesey
02-14-2016 4:51 PM


That's not to say that the role of the judiciary is marginalised, or taken for granted - just that it is (pretty much completely) separated from politics.
We've discussed the separation from politics related to the choosing of justices in a previous thread, and I don't want to rehash that discussion, but given the political nature of the cases that are brought before the court, there are bound to be political implications in the choice. Not sure what to make of the fact that people aren't interested in who the judges are.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by vimesey, posted 02-14-2016 4:51 PM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 02-15-2016 2:35 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 122 (778030)
02-14-2016 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
02-14-2016 2:05 PM


My interpretation of the two passages together? So influential were Scalia's conservative arguments over his career that by the time of DC v Heller even dissenters were applying some of his philosophies, such as original intent.
I'm not questioning your interpretation. That's certainly what the author of the times said. But if the above passage is among the best things you can say about Scalia, then it is less than a compliment. Of course Justices apply original intent. Scalia did not invent the doctrine. Scalia's uniqueness is in his refusal to use other means, like legislative history in addition to original intent because he wants to avoid a "living constitution". But in this case the other Justices were applying original intent because Scalia would not. In other words, the other Justice's found Scalia's result driven analysis to be hypocritical. The Times spun that episode hypocrisy into some kind of compliment.
In my view, that's faint praise indeed. Surely there are some better moments to praise Scalia for.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 02-14-2016 2:05 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 02-14-2016 9:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 122 (778040)
02-15-2016 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
02-14-2016 9:23 PM


Seemed like pretty high praise to me.
Yes it did seem like that. But the truth is that the Justices were not learning from Scalia, they were complaining about his hypocrisy. Again, Scalia did not invent the idea of the original intent. For most Justices original intent is one of many tools of resolving a Constitutional question.
I think what the Times article meant was that even Justices who didn't embrace original intent were forced to take it into consideration
I have agreed that they said that. But it simply is not true. The actually truth, at least with respect to DC v Heller is pretty condemning. And this is not just my idea. I am sure I cited an article expressing this same opinion the last time you and I discussed Scalia.
In summary, if this is the best example of Justices being influenced by Scalia, then Scalia is pretty pathetic. The fact of the matter is that an origionalist interpretation of the the 2nd amendment does not get the result Scalia wanted.
You're interpreting it as a backhanded compliment. To me it seemed genuinely complementary about his ability to imbue his ideas with force and power.
Not exactly.
I'm willing to assume that the Times meant it as a compliment. In fact, I said I agreed with your interpretation. If so, then they the Times writer would have been better served to have picked a different example, because the one they picked makes an idiot of the man. I see some much better handling of Scalia in various articles on the CNN web page.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 02-14-2016 9:23 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 02-15-2016 7:03 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 122 (778056)
02-15-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Percy
02-15-2016 7:03 AM


This is an article that I think does a better job of giving Scalia his due:
Scalia will be impossible to replace | CNN
I'd likely disagree with the articles conclusions and with the unbridled praise of Scalia as Justice, but I'm certainly not objective on the subject of Scalia. Nevertheless, the idea that Scalia was the protector of the 4th, 5th and 6th amendment and that he should be 'your Justice' because of that is inane. It would be easy to find a more liberal Justice who would have joined with Scalia on the example decisions cited in the article. In fact in each of those cases, liberal Justices agreed with Scalia; in some cases all of the liberal wing agreed. There is little to no danger that an Obama/Clinton/Sanders appointee would have voted differently on those cases, and some indication that a law and order conservative would have supported the State in at least the cited 4th amendment cases.
The truth is that Scalia's legacy is almost (but not quite) exclusively celebrated by conservatives. This article discusses Scalia in glowing terms. Fine. Let's get the man in the ground so we go back to saying what this man was really about.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 02-15-2016 7:03 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 02-16-2016 10:06 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 122 (778057)
02-15-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by 14174dm
02-15-2016 12:52 PM


I would hope the Senate Republicans would do their job & vote one way or the other on an Obama nomination.
It's politics. Republicans have campaigned and won on promising blocking Obama's initiatives since early in his first term. I have difficulty imagining them approving a nominee given any amount of cover.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by 14174dm, posted 02-15-2016 12:52 PM 14174dm has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 122 (778091)
02-16-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Big_Al35
02-16-2016 1:06 PM


I guess promoting attacks on 'original meaning' would include those who are anti-constitutional.
Yes that's true if you subscribe to the proposition that the only legitimate way to interpret the constitution is to take an impossible poll of the opinions of the founding fathers and to only use the result as your interpretation.
Would that population of subscribers include you?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Big_Al35, posted 02-16-2016 1:06 PM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Big_Al35, posted 02-16-2016 3:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 50 of 122 (778093)
02-16-2016 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Percy
02-16-2016 10:06 AM


'm not sure the distinction between original intent and textualism is all that great. Even Cass said they were only "a little bit different."
Those two doctrines are quite distinct. They are complementary and Scalia used both even though he often claimed to only use original intent. Textualism better describes Scalia's opinion in that ACA case we discussed awhile back.
In my view either approach gives a jurist the excuse to deny nearly anything he pleases just because it isn't explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, something Scalia seemed to do a lot.
I think something similar can be said about any one of the traditional methods for interpreting the constitution. They are all subject to bending to the will of the Justice. Every method of interpretation has its strengths and weaknesses. Scalia was of the opinion that doctrines like 'legislative history' have weaknesses that are too strong to justify their use, ever.
In my opinion, Scalia was enamored of some particular techniques because they worked well to yield the conservative answers he wanted to give. For that reason, when Scalia departed from those techniques on major cases (like DC v Heller and Bush v. Gore) his opinions generated lots of derision and accusations of hypocrisy.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 02-16-2016 10:06 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 122 (778094)
02-16-2016 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Percy
02-15-2016 6:52 PM


I think not, and in the case of Al Gore I'd argue the country would have been much better off.
Doesn't this suggest that the choice of president does make a significant difference? Certainly it is more speculative to talk about what the losers would have done, but aren't we speculating here?
The only candidate who could get me out of the house is Trump. If he wins the Republican nomination then it will definitely feel pivotal and I will definitely vote.
It seems likely that the winner of the election will be picking not only Scalia's replacement, but also the replacement of one or more of the less conservative Justices as well. That issue alone is enough to not only get me to the polls, but to get me knocking on your door (well not literally your door in NH) to get others to the polls. I certainly don't want Trump or Cruz in that position.
One of Obama's greatest failures, in my opinion is represented by all of the open federal judge positions that he did not get filled. Not all his fault, but he gets some of the blame as do those of us who could not be bothered to vote in Senate races.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 02-15-2016 6:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2016 12:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 122 (778095)
02-16-2016 2:35 PM


Scalia is impossible to replace.
Of all of the things said about Scalia, the statement that he is irreplaceable irks me the most. Let's recall that Thurgood Marshall was 'replaced' by Clarence Thomas and that Bork would have been Justice Marshall's replacement.
I assume that anyone making statements about Scalia being impossible to replace is really speaking about their own political ideology.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by nwr, posted 02-16-2016 3:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 122 (778101)
02-16-2016 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Big_Al35
02-16-2016 3:14 PM


I would be interested to know what your thoughts on the second amendment would be.
I'm sure I've discussed my views on that already in an appropriate forum. That discussion would not be on topic here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Big_Al35, posted 02-16-2016 3:14 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 122 (778213)
02-18-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Big_Al35
02-17-2016 10:05 AM


Re: Topic Reminder
Ahhh gatekeeping at its finest. From what I understand, Scalia was pro-guns and pro-original intent.
Yes, Big_Al. Have you read Scalia's opinion in DC v Heller? Do you understand why some people say that Scalia's pro-gun politics got in the way of his "Original intent" judicial philosophy? Percy and I have gone back and forth over this several times in this very thread. My position on Scalia with regard to DC v Heller is certainly clear by now.
On the other hand, defending my own personal opinion on the second amendment is off topic here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Big_Al35, posted 02-17-2016 10:05 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 66 of 122 (778218)
02-18-2016 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hyroglyphx
02-18-2016 11:17 AM


Scalia seemed to advocate the notion of Judicial Restraint versus Judicial Activism
That's only if you buy the myth that less conservative outcomes are activism. Scalia was just as likely as any Justice on the panel to oppose legislative action and executive branch regulation and to strike down statutes and regulation as passed by those branches. But it seems popular to consider such things activism only when Ginsburg is on the side that does it. Scalia was no respecter of the separation of Church and State regardless of how firmly that doctrine was part of the original intent of the constitution and his disrespect of the First Amendment both in his opinions and his out of court actions are well documented.
Let's get this man in the ground and get on with picking his successor. Surely we can do better.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-18-2016 11:17 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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