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Author Topic:   White Privilege
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 151 of 276 (778635)
02-22-2016 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
02-22-2016 4:49 PM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
The key issue is how the change will be fairly implemented. I can say right now that quota hiring and reverse discrimination are not valid solutions. Any other suggestions?
Studies have shown that CVs with white male names on the top tend to get more interviews than identical CVs with 'ethnic' or female names on the top. So adding more blindness to the candidate selection process may be of use.
However, you should acknowledge your privilege in being able to say 'we shouldn't actively try to discriminate' and have the natural biases in humans work in your favour until a better solution occurs. In the meantime, people of races who have historically been oppressed by white people and are generally socially disadvantaged have to continue living under the default state of having to lose out to jobs to less qualified white people. You might want to look at Europe's methods such as Positive action
On the other hand, if you know your car naturally veers to the left, might it not be an idea to turn the wheel to the right on purpose even though you probably should be able to keep it pointed it straight?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 02-22-2016 4:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 02-22-2016 5:18 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
 Message 154 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-23-2016 2:04 AM Modulous has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 276 (778637)
02-22-2016 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Modulous
02-22-2016 5:13 PM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
I looked up Positive Action. I noted that the definition said
quote:
... to allow selection of a candidate from an "under-represented" group, so long as he or she is no less than equally qualified compared to another potential candidate that is not from the under-represented group.
Its a fine line, I will admit.
I also understand that there are no easy solutions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 276 (778652)
02-23-2016 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
02-22-2016 4:49 PM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
Hurting me is not the way to help others
Every time a black person gets the job, a white person doesn't and vice versa. It is impossible to be fair without hurting someone because there are not infinite numbers of positions. So if a company has historically been lily white, does being fair mean that the only black people who can now be hired have to be better than every other white applicant? Are you better than every other black applicant?
Lots of colleges have preferences for descendants of alumni. Is this fair, particularly when the school has a dearth of Asian alumni? How is it different from affirmative action?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 154 of 276 (778654)
02-23-2016 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Modulous
02-22-2016 5:13 PM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
you should acknowledge your privilege in being able to say 'we shouldn't actively try to discriminate' and have the natural biases in humans work in your favour until a better solution occurs. In the meantime, people of races who have historically been oppressed by white people and are generally socially disadvantaged have to continue living under the default state of having to lose out to jobs to less qualified white people. You might want to look at Europe's methods such as Positive action
Whether "white privilege" exists or not, what do you suggest be done in lieu of it? Because implicit in the narrative is that I should feel bad for something that I have no control over. Seems that in whatever country their is predominant culture would tend to have some perceived privilege.
Does Black Privilege exist in Zimbabwe or Brown Privilege exist in Venezuela?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Modulous, posted 02-22-2016 5:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2016 3:11 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 155 of 276 (778657)
02-23-2016 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Hyroglyphx
02-23-2016 2:04 AM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
Whether "white privilege" exists or not, what do you suggest be done in lieu of it?
If you don't think having white skin affords you privileges unavailable to people of darker skin, ask some non-white friends.
And I made two suggestions in the post you are replying to. Adding blind selection processes into the hiring process (eg., a CV with no names on is the one the person making the decisions gets to see).
Because implicit in the narrative is that I should feel bad for something that I have no control over.
If you don't feel bad that some people are losing job opportunities to less qualified people on the grounds (ultimately) that their ancestors lived closer to the equator - then there's something wrong with you. You don't need to be in a position to change things to feel that the situation is bad.
There was nothing in my text that suggests you should feel responsible. But you are potentially jointly culpable, and really the best weapon to start fighting it is awareness.
But think on this: The victim of racism (unconscious or otherwise) has less power to change things than you do. So if they can't fix it, it's up to us white folk to recognize that the problem is there and find ways to deal with it.
Does Black Privilege exist in Zimbabwe or Brown Privilege exist in Venezuela?
I expect to some degree, yes. Historically one could look to Japan or Ancient Egypt for examples of the 'home race' having overt privileges, and today Han in China could be said to have privileges other races lack.
The main difference is that these are quite overtly racist societies. Today the problem may be less significant but it is less obvious. Instead of it being difficult to avoid someone proclaiming their race as superior, you have people denying that the races are different while showing a statistical preference to white people which over time and given large population sizes, adds up to a problem that it is difficult to persuade some people even exists!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-23-2016 2:04 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-23-2016 5:45 AM Modulous has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 276 (778658)
02-23-2016 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Modulous
02-23-2016 3:11 AM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
If you don't think having white skin affords you privileges unavailable to people of darker skin, ask some non-white friends.
Some would agree, some wouldn't.
And I made two suggestions in the post you are replying to. Adding blind selection processes into the hiring process (eg., a CV with no names on is the one the person making the decisions gets to see).
But the problem would still arise during the interview phase, no? You can hide a person's name for only so long but eventually a face-to-face interview will be conducted. So it seems if someone truly has a problem with minorities, there are ways of continuing to create an atmosphere of systemic racism without it overtly appearing to be systemic racism.
If you don't feel bad that some people are losing job opportunities to less qualified people on the grounds (ultimately) that their ancestors lived closer to the equator - then there's something wrong with you. You don't need to be in a position to change things to feel that the situation is bad.
I don't mean feel bad for someone who doesn't get a job because they are a minority, I mean is it supposed to mean that I am supposed to feel bad for BEING white and should I debase myself because of it? Because that is what seems to be implicit in it, as if I am corroborating or contributing towards it just because I happen to be a white male.
There was nothing in my text that suggests you should feel responsible. But you are potentially jointly culpable, and really the best weapon to start fighting it is awareness.
If I am culpable, then I am deserving of blame for it. How am I culpable? By not doing anything to better the situation?
But think on this: The victim of racism (unconscious or otherwise) has less power to change things than you do. So if they can't fix it, it's up to us white folk to recognize that the problem is there and find ways to deal with it.
I know this is not the intended goal of yours, but that sounds really patronizing and demeaning to minorities.
The main difference is that these are quite overtly racist societies. Today the problem may be less significant but it is less obvious. Instead of it being difficult to avoid someone proclaiming their race as superior, you have people denying that the races are different while showing a statistical preference to white people which over time and given large population sizes, adds up to a problem that it is difficult to persuade some people even exists!
Well, there's no doubt that systemic racism still exists and in some regards will always exist. Certain policies are in place to help ameliorate it, but there is no way to stop it completely. The best way to ensure inclusion towards a society is to fully immerse in it. What do I mean? Not all minorities are treated with disdain. Some tend to fair much better than others because they assimilate within the culture better than others. Asians or Indians may actually benefit because of their race, as there seems to be a presumption that people belonging to this minority are generally perceived as hard workers who contribute to economic strength and stability. The point is, the door swings both ways.
If you look at the situation with African-Americans, there is not just the perception of Anglo-Americans mistreating blacks. In fact, there are also issues from Asian-Americans, Indian-Americans, and Latinos against African-Americans. That means that there is a perception across all of these other minority groups, which except for Latinos, comprise a much smaller minority group than African-Americans. Is this all due to White Privilege or are these people capable of making judgments based on their own experiences?
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Typos
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Edit to add

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2016 3:11 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-23-2016 9:46 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 167 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2016 2:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 157 of 276 (778664)
02-23-2016 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Hyroglyphx
02-23-2016 5:45 AM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
But think on this: The victim of racism (unconscious or otherwise) has less power to change things than you do. So if they can't fix it, it's up to us white folk to recognize that the problem is there and find ways to deal with it.
I know this is not the intended goal of yours, but that sounds really patronizing and demeaning to minorities.
It is up to me to do something about it and if I don't feel bad about it then there is something wrong with me.
I can't help but laugh at the white people who are using black people to show other white people how they themselves are the ones who really are the supreme white people
Edited by Cat Sci, : typos

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-23-2016 5:45 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 276 (778668)
02-23-2016 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Tangle
08-29-2015 2:59 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
Right, so it's a privilege to have two legs.
It's a privilege that many of us are born with, like white skin. Unlike skin colour, it's a privilege that you can lose.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 276 (778676)
02-23-2016 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by ringo
02-23-2016 10:58 AM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
Right, so it's a privilege to have two legs.
It's a privilege that many of us are born with, like white skin.
What is the point in calling it a "privilege"?
When you're calling things like 'having two legs' a privilege, then you've lost me on what it is you're trying to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 02-23-2016 10:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 02-23-2016 11:22 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 160 of 276 (778677)
02-23-2016 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by New Cat's Eye
02-23-2016 11:16 AM


Re: some privilege
Cat Sci writes:
When you're calling things like 'having two legs' a privilege, then you've lost me on what it is you're trying to say.
The point is that people who are privileged are the least likely to notice that they are privileged.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-23-2016 11:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-23-2016 11:30 AM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 276 (778678)
02-23-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
02-23-2016 11:22 AM


Re: some privilege
The point is that people who are privileged are the least likely to notice that they are privileged.
No, what is the point in designating the thing that people aren't noticing that they are having as being a "privilege"?
Like having two legs, almost everybody has two legs. Why is the point in considering that a privilege?
That's just not what the word means so it's not making any sense.
Okay, so I have two legs. Why should I call that a privilege?
Why is that better than saying that people who do not have two legs are deprived?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 02-23-2016 11:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 02-23-2016 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 162 of 276 (778682)
02-23-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by New Cat's Eye
02-23-2016 11:30 AM


Re: some privilege
Cat Sci writes:
Okay, so I have two legs. Why should I call that a privilege?
I didn't say you should call it a privilege. You can call it "George" for all I care. I said you should recognize that it is a privilege - or at least equivalent to a privilege. You should recognize that it's something you have that others don't have.
Cat Sci writes:
Why is that better than saying that people who do not have two legs are deprived?
I didn't say it was better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-23-2016 11:30 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-23-2016 11:54 AM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 163 of 276 (778685)
02-23-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
02-23-2016 11:42 AM


Re: some privilege
I said you should recognize that it is a privilege - or at least equivalent to a privilege. You should recognize that it's something you have that others don't have.
Why "privilege" though?
I have two ears. Do I need consider having two ears as a privilege to be concerned about the plight of the one-eared people?
This privilege stuff just doesn't make any sense. Peron A being deprived doesn't mean Person B is privileged.
And when privileged just means 'not-deprived' then it has lost its meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 02-23-2016 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 166 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2016 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 169 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2016 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 164 of 276 (778686)
02-23-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by New Cat's Eye
02-23-2016 11:54 AM


Re: some privilege
Cat Sci writes:
Why "privilege" though?
It's a figure of speech. It stretches the dictionary-boy meaning of the word to make a point, the point of the whole friggin' thread - i.e. that people who are privileged don't know they're privileged.
Cat Sci writes:
And when privileged just means 'not-deprived' then it has lost its meaning.
On the contrary, it broadens its meaning.

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 165 of 276 (778699)
02-23-2016 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
02-23-2016 12:00 PM


Re: some privilege
ringo writes:
It's a figure of speech.
No it's not; privilege is a word with a meaning. You're misusing the word - hence the disagreement.
People with two legs are not privileged, they're entirely to be expected - two legs is the normal condition for people.
It's therefore not the case that people with two legs are privileged but it is the case that people without two legs are disadvantaged.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 02-23-2016 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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