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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 346 of 451 (779686)
03-07-2016 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
03-06-2016 7:59 AM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
What you are saying is that Jesus is a figure in your imagination and exists only to serve you.
The only thing that Jesus ever did that served me was His death, burial, and resurrection. My original point was that cultural heroes are in our collective imagination--though in the case of Jesus, He may well have imagined all of us long before we were even capable of imagining Him.
You disagree with me on several points. I believe that humanity is incapable of success on our own. You believe that we are charged to try and do our best and not to expect God to bail us out.
You have stated before that Jesus was a failed Messiah. I would argue that this is a Jewish viewpoint and largely not part of the Christian mythos.
I am agreeing for the sake of argument that the Jesus character is a part of all of our imaginations---but I would add that i believe He is alive apart from needing human expression to sustain a cultural legend.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 03-06-2016 7:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 347 of 451 (779690)
03-07-2016 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Bob Bobber
03-06-2016 10:41 PM


Bob Bobber writes:
But reconciliation simply means a change in status,...
No, it doesn't. Any empirical, verifiable evidence for the existence of Spooks yet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-06-2016 10:41 PM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 348 of 451 (779697)
03-07-2016 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Bob Bobber
03-06-2016 10:41 PM


Sorry but that is just a codswallop of word salad with no value or meaning.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-06-2016 10:41 PM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 349 of 451 (779698)
03-07-2016 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Bob Bobber
03-07-2016 12:10 AM


Of course Paul was about starting a new religion, HIS religion. Paul was making and developing and marketing a franchise.
But the thread, the topic, is about What is Christianity? It's not about what was Christianity, but rather about what is Christianity and so far the obvious answer is that it is many totally different sales pitches with almost noting in common except the Franchise name. The menus are different, prices different, nutritional value different.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 343 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-07-2016 12:10 AM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 350 of 451 (779699)
03-07-2016 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
03-07-2016 2:35 AM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Phat writes:
The only thing that Jesus ever did that served me was His death, burial, and resurrection. My original point was that cultural heroes are in our collective imagination--though in the case of Jesus, He may well have imagined all of us long before we were even capable of imagining Him.
The first sentence is pitiful and sad and makes Jesus life and teachings worthless. The rest of that is just nonsense word salad. There was no point in Jesus living for thirty plus years or teaching for three years or value in anything he taught it seems.
Phat writes:
You disagree with me on several points. I believe that humanity is incapable of success on our own. You believe that we are charged to try and do our best and not to expect God to bail us out.
Stop and read what you write. Even if we are incapable of success on our own are we not still expected and charged to try and do our best regardless of whether God bails us out?
Phat writes:
You have stated before that Jesus was a failed Messiah. I would argue that this is a Jewish viewpoint and largely not part of the Christian mythos.
That is certainly part of the current marketing spiel but has Jesus returned? Does Jesus rule all? The the Second Coming happen and no one got the memo?
Sorry but even under the Christian redefinition of Messiah Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
Phat writes:
I am agreeing for the sake of argument that the Jesus character is a part of all of our imaginations---but I would add that i believe He is alive apart from needing human expression to sustain a cultural legend.
What does that mean? If Jesus is imaginary then how is Jesus alive?
What do you mean?
There is no doubt that you represent one of the many different religions that today call themselves "Christian" but the question still remains; "What is Christianity?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 351 of 451 (779710)
03-07-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by GDR
03-06-2016 5:06 PM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
GDR writes:
To use the "Last Temptation of Christ" as an argument against it is just a tad peculiar. It is a work of fiction based on nothing but the writer's imagination.
So are the gospels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by GDR, posted 03-06-2016 5:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 03-07-2016 2:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 03-07-2016 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 352 of 451 (779733)
03-07-2016 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by ringo
03-07-2016 10:39 AM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Ringo writes:
So are the gospels.
You can claim that they are wrong but there is no evidence for the idea that they believed they were writing fiction.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by ringo, posted 03-07-2016 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 03-08-2016 10:43 AM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 353 of 451 (779739)
03-07-2016 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jar
03-06-2016 10:20 PM


What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
jar writes:
There was no point in Jesus living for thirty plus years or teaching for three years or value in anything he taught it seems.
I did'nt mean to imply that Jesus life was worthless or of no value. I agree to a large extent with your belief that Jesus life was important as were His teachings.
Even if we are incapable of success on our own are we not still expected and charged to try and do our best regardless of whether God bails us out?
Yes. But we are also expected to accept what Jesus did for us through his voluntary death and subsequent resurrection.
If Jesus is imaginary then how is Jesus alive?
Good point. Ask yourself what you believe, for there is no definite evidence apart from what you believe and personally accept.
...even under the Christian redefinition of Messiah Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
I would argue that you have chosen to believe this, and have been taught and convinced that YOU have to be your own messiah.
Jesus is to each of us how we have been taught (and believe) that He is (or for some, "was") just as you have told me that my God is a creation of my imagination,desires, and what I have been taught. Superman, as a cultural icon, became what people read, watched, or wanted him to be. The author, Michael Critzer, argued that a cultural mythos deserves to be respected and viewed in a traditional sense and that any attempts to change the nature of such a character are at best disrespectful and at worst degrading.
To question whether Jesus is alive today is disrespectful to some, and yet is on point for this particular topic. Some believe that Jesus life,character, and teachings are the primary lesson. Otrhers believe that the death, burial, and resurrection are the primary component necessary for a Christian to accept.
jar writes:
Except of course for the fact that resurrection was not at all uncommon in the Bible stories. Happened again and again to quite a few folk. There was nothing really unusual or unique about Jesus resurrection.
The primary difference is that Jesus willingly gave up His life. It was not snatched from Him. For many Christians, the resurrection was an action shared by all who accept it. Its a fresh start. Its a general atonement for everyone. Mind you, i'm not disagreeing with your emphasis on personal responsibility.
jar writes:
Thank God no one took my sin debt.
I can respect that you want to be personally responsible for making your own amends. Some of us believe that this is impossible for any human to fully do.
You may argue that we are still charged to try to do our best, and I've no problem with this as long as it doesn't border on the ridiculous. Sometimes, we just need to admit that we need help. Drop the ego. If a man owes an enormous debt that could never be reasonably repaid, it is not right to expect him to work the rest of his life simply to attempt repayment on an untouchable sum. God knew this, and gave us parables of debt forgiveness. On the other hand, once-and-for-all atonement paid by God does not absolve us of responsibility.
Of course, on the other hand, I can fully respect your argument that we should be taught to be responsible and not rely on God to simply do everything for us---as if we were eternal infants.
Edited by Phat, :

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 03-06-2016 10:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 354 of 451 (779740)
03-07-2016 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by ringo
03-07-2016 10:39 AM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Ringo writes:
So are the gospels.
There is a difference between an author who creates characters,stories, and plots based entirely upon the authors imagination and a report on what an author actually sees or hears form those directly at the scene.
The jury will likely be forever "out" on this one. Ive read arguments from both sides.
Personally, I believe the eyewitness side as opposed to the storytelling,ulterior motive side.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by ringo, posted 03-07-2016 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 03-08-2016 10:46 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 355 of 451 (779742)
03-07-2016 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
03-07-2016 4:03 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
Phat writes:
I would argue that you have chosen to believe this, and have been taught and convinced that YOU have to be your own messiah.
You can argue any fool thing you want but that still has nothing to do with the point made and is, quite frankly, a bunch of crap.
Even under the Christian redefinition of Messiah Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
Phat writes:
The primary difference is that Jesus willingly gave up His life. It was not snatched from Him. For many Christians, the resurrection was an action shared by all who accept it. Its a fresh start. Its a general atonement for everyone. Mind you, i'm not disagreeing with your emphasis on personal responsibility.
Bullshit and certainly not supported by the Bible stories. Jesus was arrested, tried, sentenced and executed and had no more choice in the matter than the other two criminals executed that day. He was just 32 years old. He did not succeed in a lifetime of teaching like the Buddha.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 03-07-2016 4:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 356 of 451 (779754)
03-07-2016 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by jar
03-07-2016 4:34 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
jar writes:
Even under the Christian redefinition of Messiah Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
True, unless He was resurrected.
jar writes:
Jesus was arrested, tried, sentenced and executed and had no more choice in the matter than the other two criminals executed that day.
Not true. He chose to go into Jerusalem and do the things that He did knowing full well what those with the power did to someone who was going to do what He did. He did not have to go into Jerusalem at all. If He hadn't done that He would not have had to face the crucifixion. It was a choice. He went in as an act of faith believing that somehow God was going to work it all together for good. With the resurrection God did just that.
I have no idea why you insist on calling yourself a Christian. Your beliefs line up perfectly with the agnostic view. I know you belong to a church but Christianity is a belief, not a social group.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 4:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 7:46 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 357 of 451 (779757)
03-07-2016 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by GDR
03-07-2016 7:17 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
GDR writes:
I have no idea why you insist on calling yourself a Christian. Your beliefs line up perfectly with the agnostic view. I know you belong to a church but Christianity is a belief, not a social group.
Except as this thread so clearly shows, Christianity is not a belief but rather a whole collection of different beliefs, all claiming the mantle of Christianity. There is Christianity as you market it, Christianity as Phat markets it, Christianity as Faith markets it, Christianity as Bob Bobber markets it, even Christianity as I try to market it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by GDR, posted 03-07-2016 7:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by GDR, posted 03-07-2016 8:57 PM jar has replied
 Message 364 by Phat, posted 03-09-2016 12:37 AM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 358 of 451 (779758)
03-07-2016 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by jar
03-07-2016 7:46 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
jar writes:
Except as this thread so clearly shows, Christianity is not a belief but rather a whole collection of different beliefs, all claiming the mantle of Christianity. There is Christianity as you market it, Christianity as Phat markets it, Christianity as Faith markets it, Christianity as Bob Bobber markets it, even Christianity as I try to market it.
Of course it is a belief. Everyone on that list believes something specific to Christianity except you. You have even said that your beliefs are consist with Buddhism, and as I have pointed out, even consistent with agnosticism. Name anything that you believe that couldn't just as easily be believed by either one of those two groups.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 7:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 11:09 PM GDR has replied
 Message 360 by NosyNed, posted 03-07-2016 11:34 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 359 of 451 (779759)
03-07-2016 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by GDR
03-07-2016 8:57 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
GDR writes:
Of course it is a belief. Everyone on that list believes something specific to Christianity except you. You have even said that your beliefs are consist with Buddhism, and as I have pointed out, even consistent with agnosticism. Name anything that you believe that couldn't just as easily be believed by either one of those two groups.
Utter nonsense GDR as I have pointed out here many times but in the spirit of this topic I will gladly try yet again to express what I see as Christianity.
First I believe that the individual known as Jesus actually existed. It is a belief of course and so I could certainly also be wrong. That is not agnosticism but simple honesty.
I believe that Jesus is a sacrifice for us by God as laid out in the Nicene Creed:
quote:
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
I will pause here for a moment before returning to the Nicene Creed because this is where the Christianity I try to market does begin to differ from what so many others try to sell.
IMHO THIS is the sacrifice, not Jesus death. It is GOD becoming man, not man/god but just simply man; man that is born of a woman, that will live, that will die. It is GOD, the creator of all that is seen; becoming something far less, a weak human unable to even focus his eyes, having to learn to control his bowels to see, to talk, to walk, needed to be fed and not understanding why he is not fed NOW.
And it is this life of sacrifice, of teaching that is for our salvation. Jesus is born and so will die. That is fact from the moment of his conception.
His death will happen as it happens to all men.
Yes, he suffered under Pontius Pilot according to the stories and was executed; but his execution was not anything unique, in fact at least two other people suffered the same fate the same day and it's likely there many others across the Roman Empire that same day.
But Jesus was going to die no matter what. Jesus death was inexorable.
quote:
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Did he rise from the dead? According to the stories yes and I believe that is what happened. But of course I also understand I could well be wrong.
But I also believe it really does not matter.
The story of rising from the dead is as I have pointed out far from unique in either the Bible or other mythology. It was a common theme. The belief though does offer hope for a life after death. But for that to have any meaning to man, Jesus too must have been a man at the time of his death. Not man/god since man are not gods; human just can't do the things gods do.
The important part there though is not the resurrection but rather the ascension and change from man to God.
quote:
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
And this is important. If that happens then he would no longer be a failed Messiah but until that happens Jesus is simply a failed messiah.
I believe (again, I understand I may well be wrong) that if there is a life after death then we will be judged at that time and judged based on what we have done. I do not expect any gettouttahellfree card simply based on my beliefs. I don't see Jesus death as any payment for any of my sins.
I hope that I will be forgiven but understand that if that happens it will be by GOD's grace and not some prepayment sacrifice or something I earn by acts, beliefs or profession.
And if this is true, then the lines above that show Jesus as a failed messiah may well be revised; if judgement happens on an individual basis instead of at some mass rising of all the millions of years of dead folk, then Jesus may well be the Messiah. But no one alive can ever know and so for all those living Jesus is still a failed messiah.
But, and here is perhaps where you get the idea I might not be a Christian, I also believe strongly that Christianity as has been marketed from the very beginning is NOT the one true religion. It is a map, a guide.
There are also other maps, other guides out there; as flawed in their own way as Christianity is. I believe Christianity is not THE RIGHT Path, but it is my path.
I believe that what Jesus taught us by his life is that we are charged to do is right, to care for others and the world we live in, and that we will be judged based on our actions, not our beliefs.
I believe that if we look at Jesus behavior as described in the stories it is a life of doing for others, feeding the hungry, making the beer run at the party, healing the sick, comforting the sorrowful. Jesus leads us by example and we are charged to do as he did.
As I said and you even quoted "Christianity is not a belief but rather a whole collection of different beliefs, all claiming the mantle of Christianity."
What you market is different than what Phat markets and what Faith markets and what I market. Christianity is not set in stone, has evolved and changed over time and will continue to evolve and change. It has been a force for good as well as one of the destructive forces of all time.
So short and incomplete synopsis and review. I hope it answers your questions.
But what I hope will happen in this thread is not a continuing debate about which Christianity is the right Christianity since all the evidence seems to show they are all wrong, but rather individual expositions of what that person thinks is Christianity. Once they person presents their idea of what Christianity is questions could be asked to clarify their position.
Edited by jar, : Theme is not spelled them

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by GDR, posted 03-07-2016 8:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 03-12-2016 10:38 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 360 of 451 (779760)
03-07-2016 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by GDR
03-07-2016 8:57 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
It is hard to hear the emphasis in the written word.
I am pretty sure Jar means it is not a belief (as in one) it is many which should be clear from the rest of the quote.
ABE
And even if the beliefs have somethings in common there are so many differences there sure isn't just one belief.
Edited by NosyNed, : No reason given.

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