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Author Topic:   People ARE Mixing the Gospels Together!
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 61 of 280 (779826)
03-08-2016 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 4:32 PM


Re: Thanks Faith
Does God really hate the human race because of the actions of the human race?
Scripture says we are "at enmity" with God in our natural fallen condition, we're His enemies. No He doesn't hate us even in this condition -- "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should have eternal life." That says it all. We naturally merit Hell, yet God loves us even n that condition, and yet He cannot save us because justice by His inexorable Law demands that sin be punished or atoned for. Therefore He sent His Son to die in our place to effect reconciliation between His holy nature and our unholy nature. He does love us but reconciliation is impossible as long as we remain at enmity with Him because He's holy. Jesus' sacrifice is what expresses His love and effects the reconciliation that otherwise is impossible between us and God. It ALL focuses back on the cross.
The fact is that God loves the human race so much that the magnitude of his love is almost incomprehensible to imagine. In the past, God stood far off from the sinner, but God’s love is so paramount that he says he loves humans who are actively his enemies.
Yes, but His loving us doesn't save us until it is recognized in the sacrifice of His Son for us, when Christ died for us, resurrected and then went to the Father, completing his work of atonement that reconciles His enemies to Him.

Certainly, the bible shows that God does not like the actions of the human race, but God reconciled himself to his enemies while they are still in hostility, although this statement may appear to be strange and impossible, but it is not. These are important words; God’s reconciliation to the human race took place when the human race was actively his enemy, not after the human race repented.
But I think you are missing something here. The reconciliation is the death of Christ, and THAT took place for each of us while we were His enemy. I agree it occurred before we repented:
Romans 5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Even while we were sinners Christ died for us, because of God's love, but the reconciliation isn't effected until we SEE His love in the cross, RECOGNIZE His death in our place out of love, THEN we repent and give our lives to Him.
You seem to be saying something different, and I probably won't argue you with you much after this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 4:32 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 5:10 PM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 62 of 280 (779828)
03-08-2016 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
03-08-2016 5:01 PM


Re: Thanks Faith
We were dead in sins, because we had our identity in Adam, Adam in rebellion. We now have a brand new identity, dead to sin identity. The goal of most believer’s life has been to become disgusted enough with ourselves to try hard enough, so that we can finally win God’s approval. 

One of the most disturbing things is someone unable to express confidence about whether they can know if they will have eternal life or not. From Adam onward, people have been doing what seems right before other people, in regard to having a relationship with God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 5:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 5:21 PM Bob Bobber has not replied
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 5:35 PM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 63 of 280 (779830)
03-08-2016 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 5:10 PM


Re: Thanks Faith
We were dead in sins, because we had our identity in Adam, Adam in rebellion. We now have a brand new identity, dead to sin identity. The goal of most believer’s life has been to become disgusted enough with ourselves to try hard enough, so that we can finally win God’s approval.
Yes, you keep emphasizing this major truth, that we cannot be saved by our works. And it's also true that even some of us who know this intellectually still emotionally behave as if we thought our good deeds would save us, which is a terrible condition to be in. We all have to learn to submit completely to God's grace as the ONLY way we are saved, our own efforts being worth absolutely nothing. So far I agree with you if I'm getting what you are saying.

One of the most disturbing things is someone unable to express confidence about whether they can know if they will have eternal life or not.
From Adam onward, people have been doing what seems right before other people, in regard to having a relationship with God.
I agree that's disturbing, and there are some churches that even teach that we cannot know if we're saved, although scripture is very clear that we can know, and John wrote much of his gospel and his epistles to show us how we can know. Still some of us are weak and have to learn it. The churches who teach that we cannot know are very much in the wrong however.
What may be even MORE disturbing, however, is that there are many CHristians who think they are saved and aren't because they don't recognize the fact that they are depending on their own works instead of on Christ, or because of some other failure of understanding. Revivals are full of stories of people who thought they were Christians but when revival came God opened their eyes to the fact that they weren't saved, and then they were able to seek salvation through the Holy Spirit in the revival and were saved.
Anyone who says the Christian life is easy doesn't know what they're talking about.
On the one hand it's the easiest thing imaginable: believe that Christ died for your sins and give your life to Him; you are no longer your own, you were bought with a price, you belong to Him. On the other our fallen nature dies hard and we don't even know when we are depending on ourselves instead of on Him and have to learn it over time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 5:10 PM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 280 (779832)
03-08-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 5:10 PM


Re: Thanks Faith
We were dead in sins, because we had our identity in Adam, Adam in rebellion. We now have a brand new identity, dead to sin identity.
Didn't answer this the first time.
We have this new identity IF we are in Christ, IF we have put all our trust in Him for our salvation. THEN we are "dead to sin" because He has taken all our sin upon Himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 5:10 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 7:52 PM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 65 of 280 (779839)
03-08-2016 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
03-08-2016 5:35 PM


Re: Thanks Faith
Good points. Flesh wants to say if I broke it I can fix it. God is not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God is asking us to believe Christ accomplished salvation for us and we are simply to believe it. Christ did it all, there is nothing left for us to do. 

God did all the giving, we do only all the receiving. You who say you believe in Jesus Christ, is there any sin that can be put to your account now? If you really believe that, then you do not believe that Christ paid for all of them. We can take God at his word, why can’t we stand with God on what he accomplished through Christ, that is FAITH.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 5:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 9:51 PM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 66 of 280 (779847)
03-08-2016 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 7:52 PM


We are enabled by Christ's sacrifice to do all the works too
Flesh wants to say if I broke it I can fix it. God is not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God is asking us to believe Christ accomplished salvation for us and we are simply to believe it. Christ did it all, there is nothing left for us to do. 

God did all the giving, we do only all the receiving. You who say you believe in Jesus Christ, is there any sin that can be put to your account now? If you really believe that, then you do not believe that Christ paid for all of them. We can take God at his word, why can’t we stand with God on what he accomplished through Christ, that is FAITH.
Great. You state that principle well. There are other things you've said I'd want to take issue with but as long as we agree on this I'd rather leave it there.
I do wonder if you could be saying that we don't have to turn from sin to be saved, which would be false. It's just that Christ has accomplished this for us too, the ability to turn from sin, the ability to repent, the ability to love God. All these things ARE necessary but they are the RESULT of Christ's death for us, they are all part of the gift of salvation, which we possess through faith in Him.
If we agree on this I'm happy to leave it there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 7:52 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 10:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 67 of 280 (779849)
03-08-2016 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
03-08-2016 9:51 PM


Re: We are enabled by Christ's sacrifice to do all the works too
Good points, Paul is not telling us that we will no longer be inclined to do wrong things or to think wrong things, or even that believers will more often than not always choose to do the right thing. What Paul is telling us, is that sin shall not conquer us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 9:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 11:06 PM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 280 (779858)
03-08-2016 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 10:08 PM


Re: We are enabled by Christ's sacrifice to do all the works too
Good points, Paul is not telling us that we will no longer be inclined to do wrong things or to think wrong things, or even that believers will more often than not always choose to do the right thing. What Paul is telling us, is that sin shall not conquer us.
OK, we agree about this too. We still fall into sin, but we do have this new spirit that wants to do good, because Christ's sacrifice allowed Him to send us the Holy Spirit to motivate us, fail though we often do at following Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 10:08 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 11:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 69 of 280 (779859)
03-08-2016 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
03-08-2016 11:06 PM


It's a son issue
While no believer will be sin less, hopefully, we will all sin less, as our behavior is impacted by our transformed thinking, and that transformed thinking comes through taking in the Word of God, and having the Word do its work in our lives. 

The moral choice of good and bad disease called iniquity runs within the deepest recesses of the human mind, recesses beyond our conscious reasoning, God can see what people cannot see, and the disease that manifests itself in our coming short of the right thing to do all of the time, every thought, every word, and every deed, and the coming short of the measure of God’s rightness, actions in our lives are called sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 03-08-2016 11:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 12:11 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 280 (779864)
03-09-2016 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 11:13 PM


Re: It's a son issue
Well, Bob, I'm happy that we seem to be in agreement about everything we've discussed here about being saved by grace alone through Christ alone with not a shred of reliance on anything in ourselves. I can't agree with you about your idea that there are "two gospels" however, but maybe we don't have to have that argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 11:13 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 71 of 280 (779866)
03-09-2016 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
03-09-2016 12:11 AM


Re: It's a son issue
Yet, when it comes to Jesus being risen from among the dead, how could Israel’s promised earthly king sit on the throne of David in a promised literal, earthly kingdom, if the king Yahweh anointed for that kingdom remained a dead king?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 12:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 12:33 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 280 (779867)
03-09-2016 12:20 AM


The Gospel According To Paul the Apostle.
jar will likely argue that Pauls interpretation of Christianity differs from the Gospels.
Bob, in order to successfully argue your point, you will have to show that there is such a thing as "Original Sin". jar believes that people are not born damned, but rather aware of the difference between Good and Evil. This is why he emphasizes Jesus life and teachings being of greater importance than the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. While I believe that humanity cannot achieve a worthy life in and of themselves--without Holy Communion, I also agree that we should try and do our best and admit when we sin. I understand that many of us believe that we can never earn our salvation through good works alone, but does this mean we shouldn't try and do our best? (Not to earn salvation, but simply because it is evidence of the Spirit within us)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 280 (779868)
03-09-2016 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 12:17 AM


Re: It's a son issue
Yet, when it comes to Jesus being risen from among the dead, how could Israel’s promised earthly king sit on the throne of David in a promised literal, earthly kingdom, if the king Yahweh anointed for that kingdom remained a dead king?
OK, now I see that a problem is that traditional Christianity interprets that, as well as most of the Old Testament, as a "type" or prophecy of the true Christ. The promised King IS the true Christ, risen from the dead, but you can only understand such a promise through the New Testament interpretations of the Old. As Jesus told the disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 22 the Old Testament is all about Him. Some of the Jews recognized that, accounting for the many thousands of Jewish believers in Christ reported in the gospels and the Book of Acts, but most of the Pharisees retained their worldly interpretation of a worldly Messiah and completely missed the meaning of their own scriptures. Jews today maintain that same misunderstanding, although we are also seeing the conversion of many Jews to the truth about Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:17 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:39 AM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 74 of 280 (779870)
03-09-2016 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
03-09-2016 12:20 AM


Re: The Gospel According To Paul the Apostle.
We all miss the mark, we all come short, some of us may come closer to it than others, but none of us completely and consistently eliminate sin in our lives. Most people think that victory over the law’s demands can only be achieved by obedience to the law’s demands. We that believed Paul’s good news, our being set apart is not contingent upon the degree to which we set ourselves apart. 

The only ones who can take up any piece of God’s armor, and the only ones who are involved in this struggle against the enemy, are those who have been placed into Christ. The fact that the helmet is related to salvation indicates that the enemies blows are directed at the believer’s security and assurance of being placed into Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 03-09-2016 12:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 75 of 280 (779872)
03-09-2016 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
03-09-2016 12:33 AM


The Kingdom
You see, if Israel could have their sins remitted nationally, then Israel could indeed become that holy nation and kingdom of priests. And if Israel could become that holy nation and kingdom of priests, then the Gentiles would be able to come to Yahweh through Israel’s rise.
That is why it would be important for Jesus ‘the messiah’ to be risen, so Israel could have their sins remitted, and they could arise, and the Gentiles could come to Yahweh through the nation Israel. It was only Israel having access to that eternal life that would make it possible for the Gentiles to have that eternal life through Israel’s rise, through the nation Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 12:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 12:53 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
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