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Author Topic:   People ARE Mixing the Gospels Together!
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


(1)
Message 76 of 280 (779873)
03-09-2016 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
03-09-2016 12:20 AM


Original Sin
Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos. It is the power of moral choice alone, that is Yahweh like and having that good and bad knowledge is no guarantee that one will choose or incline towards the good. The very action that brought Adam and Eve a Yahweh like awareness of their mortal autonomy, was an action that was taken in opposition to Yahweh.
Yahweh knows that, that human beings will become like Yahweh, knowing good and bad; it’s one of the things about Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. Evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 280 (779874)
03-09-2016 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 12:39 AM


Re: The Kingdom
You see, if Israel could have their sins remitted nationally, then Israel could indeed become that holy nation and kingdom of priests. And if Israel could become that holy nation and kingdom of priests, then the Gentiles would be able to come to Yahweh through Israel’s rise.
That is why it would be important for Jesus ‘the messiah’ to be risen, so Israel could have their sins remitted, and they could arise, and the Gentiles could come to Yahweh through the nation Israel. It was only Israel having access to that eternal life that would make it possible for the Gentiles to have that eternal life through Israel’s rise, through the nation Israel.
Now you are saying things I am having a hard time following.
I don't think God ever intended Israel the nation to all have their sins remitted. For that to occur they would all have to have been true beleivers and followers of God but as is revealed over and over in the Old Testament the majority always failed at that. God preserved Himself a "remnant" who were true believers. Only true believers have their sins remitted. The "true Israel of God" is identified by Paul as the Church, or all those who are saved by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone. Jews of the Old Testament who had that kind of faith, and there certainly were many of those -- you can read about them in Hebrews 11 -- those who lived by faith in God and not in their own works -- those are saved along with us, because it's all about faith. They are saved by the same gospel we are although they didn't have the opportunity to understand it as clearly as we do thanks to the New Testament. They aren't saved by a different gospel. True Old Testament believers also recognized the references to the coming Messiah in their scriptures, which are denied by unbelievers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:39 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:59 AM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 78 of 280 (779875)
03-09-2016 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
03-09-2016 12:53 AM


Re: The Kingdom
The covenant with David, it’s a covenant of grant, it’s a grant of a reward for loyal service and deeds. Yahweh rewards David with the gift of an unending dynasty, in exchange for his loyalty. Yahweh’s oath to preserve the Davidic dynasty, would lead eventually to a popular belief in the invincibility of the Holy City.
The belief in Israel’s ultimate deliverance from enemies, became bound up with David and his dynasty. When the kingdom fell finally to the Babylonians, the promise to David’s House was believed to be eternal. The community looked to the future for a restoration of the Davidic line or Davidic king or messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 12:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 1:23 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 280 (779877)
03-09-2016 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 12:59 AM


Re: The Kingdom
The covenant with David, it’s a covenant of grant, it’s a grant of a reward for loyal service and deeds. Yahweh rewards David with the gift of an unending dynasty, in exchange for his loyalty. Yahweh’s oath to preserve the Davidic dynasty, would lead eventually to a popular belief in the invincibility of the Holy City.
That's not the Biblical understanding. The covenant God made with David was specifically that the Messiah would be from David's seed, the "dynasty" ending with Christ on the throne forever and ever. David himself recognizes this when he writes in the psalm:
Psalm 110:1-2 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
In other words, David calls his own descendant "my Lord" which he wouldn't do with a merely fleshly heir, showing that he recognized by the Holy Spirit that the ruler who will come from him and sit on the throne is to be the LORD's Anointed, the Messiah, who will reign forever and ever.
Jesus calls their attention to this:
Mark 12:36-37 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? ...
How is this ruler David's mere "son" if he refers to Him as "Lord?" That's what Jesus wants them to consider. Those who are thinking only of an earthly dynasty are completely missing what God is saying in the Old Testament.
The belief in Israel’s ultimate deliverance from enemies, became bound up with David and his dynasty. When the kingdom fell finally to the Babylonians, the promise to David’s House was believed to be eternal. The community looked to the future for a restoration of the Davidic line or Davidic king or messiah.
Yes, and in this they would have been right but I don't think you take it quite far enough. It was God Himself who showed them that the ruler who was to come from the line of David would be the eternal God/Messiah Himself. And still only some of the Jews recognized Him when He came. He is to come again, you know, and then He'll literally rule the world from Jerusalem on the throne of David.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 12:59 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 1:30 AM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


(1)
Message 80 of 280 (779878)
03-09-2016 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
03-09-2016 1:23 AM


Re: The Kingdom
After Yahweh Gave up on the nations, Yahweh experiments with a single individual of believing; Abraham’s believing withstands many a trial. Yahweh is the owner of the land, Abraham was called to. Yahweh is empowered to set conditions or residency requirements for those who would reside in it, like a landlord. Yahweh is seeking replacement tenants who are going to follow the moral rules of residence that Yahweh has established for his land. 

Yahweh’s promise to Abraham is formalized in a ritual ceremony called a suzerainty covenant. The patriarchical covenant, which is a covenant in which a superior party, a suzerain dictates the terms of a political treaty usually, and an inferior party obeys them. The arrangement primarily serves the interest of the suzerain, and not the vassal or the subject.
So Yahweh is making a land grant to a favored subject, and there’s an ancient ritual that ratifies the oath. In this kind of covenant, the parties to the oath would pass between the split carcass of a sacrificial animal, as if to say, that they agree they will suffer the same fate as this animal, if they violate the covenant. 

Abraham cuts sacrificial animals in two, and Yahweh, but only Yahweh, passes between the two halves. Only Yahweh seems to be obligated by the covenant, obligated to fulfill the promise that he’s made. Abraham doesn’t appear to have any obligation in return.
In this case, it is the subject, Abraham, and not the suzerain, Yahweh, who is benefited by this covenant, and that’s a complete reversal of this ritual ceremony.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 1:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 1:39 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 280 (779879)
03-09-2016 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 1:30 AM


Re: The Kingdom
As I was taught about the covenant with Abraham, it demonstrates that God is not requiring anything of Abraham, it's a picture of God's sovereignty in completely giving the gift of salvation, which is what the Promised Land represents, without any agreement or reciprocation or "works" from Abraham or from any of us who inherit the covenant by faith.
I don't get what your point is here though:
After Yahweh Gave up on the nations, Yahweh experiments with a single individual of believing;
God "gave up on the nations?" Where does the Bible say that? Also, God doesn't "experiment," He knows what He's doing. He chose Abraham to be the father of a new nation, through whom He would teach the world about Himself, His Law, and through whom He would send the Savior, who had been promised all the way back in Eden, which was believed by the whole line of the patriarchs from Seth through Noah, and some others like Job, though distorted in many of the pagan religions that sprang up after the Flood. Abraham was to become the preserver of that promise as well as the father of the people through whom the Messiah-Savior would come.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 1:30 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 1:55 AM Faith has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 82 of 280 (779880)
03-09-2016 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
03-09-2016 1:39 AM


Re: The Kingdom
Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature.
This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement.
But things have not changed from the very beginning of time, we are at the same point today, or rapidly approaching it, that resulted in God giving up on the Gentiles way back in the book of Genesis. They knew about God, they chose not to keep him in their thoughts. The conscience has been present in people since the garden, and knowledge of the reality of God has been present as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 1:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 2:08 AM Bob Bobber has replied
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 2:50 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 280 (779881)
03-09-2016 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 1:55 AM


Re: The Kingdom
Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature.
But again, we are to understand the Old Testament through the New Testament. Yes, it will be a whole people that is saved in the end, the Church, the assembly of believers, not an earthly nation. A heavenly nation if you like. You are understanding the OT from an earthly point of view as the Jews today also do, rather than from the Christian point of view which is taught in the NT.
This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement.
Yes, that's the interpretation the Jews had and still have who don't recognize Christ and His salvation which is "not of this world." Actually there are those who understand the Hebrew Bible itself to demonstrate the Christian point of view, and that has to be true or the New Testament believers wouldn't have grasped its true meaning. The national suffering and oppression, and the enslavement are understood from a New Testament perspective to refer to our living under the rule of Satan before we are saved. He is the ultimate oppressor and enslaver. We are "slaves to sin" and ruled by Satan, who earned the right to rule us when he deceived Eve and Adam joined with her in the sin. Ever since then Satan and his demons have invented religion after religion to enslave human beings, while making sure we are bogged down in sin which alienates us from the true God. The exodus from Egypt is a picture of the multitudes who will ultimately be saved through Christ, though we are saved one by one. In the end we will be a great multitude who all escaped from "Egypt," the satanic rule of this world. And we are saved by the blood of the Lamb, which is pictured in the blood of the Passover sacrifice God commanded the people to paint on their door frames to tell the angel of death those who dwelt within were to be spared.
All that is what Jesus came to save us from, to set us free from, and all that IS contained in the Old Testament record if you read it spiritually rather than through the flesh.
But things have not changed from the very beginning of time, we are at the same point today, or rapidly approaching it, that resulted in God giving up on the Gentiles way back in the book of Genesis. They knew about God, they chose not to keep him in their thoughts. The conscience has been present in people since the garden, and knowledge of the reality of God has been present as well.
Don't know what you are talking about here. God "gave up on" the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Is that what you are talking about? Yes human beings have a conscience, but it is often twisted and "seared as by a hot iron" according to scripture, so that it doesn't function as it should. The restoration of our conscience to God is one of the gifts through salvation.
But in saying that I'm not sure what you meant so I'm not sure whether my response applies.
*********I'm going to have to stop for the night now.********
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 1:55 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 3:42 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 280 (779882)
03-09-2016 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 1:55 AM


Re: The Kingdom
But things have not changed from the very beginning of time, we are at the same point today, or rapidly approaching it, that resulted in God giving up on the Gentiles way back in the book of Genesis. They knew about God, they chose not to keep him in their thoughts. The conscience has been present in people since the garden, and knowledge of the reality of God has been present as well.
I think maybe I'm getting what you have in mind here. Are you referring to the end times message of Jesus about how the days before His return will be like the "days of Noah" when the world was overrun by sin and violence? The "Gentiles" in that context would be all those who are unbelievers when He returns, and will be swept away as the unbelievers were swept away by the Flood in Noah's time. The idea is that things seem to be getting worse now as they were right before the Flood. And I guess your mention of the conscience is a way of saying that knowledge of God is in all of us even when we don't recognize it, which is the message of Romans 1, so that those will be "without excuse" when they are condemned by God's judgment at Christ's return.
Is that what you had in mind?
If so, I agree.
****And now I'm going to bed before I fall asleep sitting here. *****
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 1:55 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 3:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 85 of 280 (779883)
03-09-2016 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
03-09-2016 2:08 AM


The Earth for Israel. Heaven for the age of grace.
The earth was the only realm of which Yahweh’s earthly nation Israel had been given inheritance. Heaven was not the issue for the nation Israel. They were never promised Heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 2:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 8:32 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 86 of 280 (779884)
03-09-2016 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
03-09-2016 2:50 AM


Re: The Kingdom
Yahweh gave up on the nations Paul talks about in Romans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 2:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 280 (779891)
03-09-2016 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 3:42 AM


Re: The Earth for Israel. Heaven for the age of grace.
The earth was the only realm of which Yahweh’s earthly nation Israel had been given inheritance. Heaven was not the issue for the nation Israel. They were never promised Heaven.
But the New Testament says that even Abraham wasn't looking for a literal earthly Promised Land, but for a completely different sort of "land" --
Hebrews 11:10, 12, 13, 16 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. .. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city...
Strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Seeking a different country. A heavenly city made by God...
The message of the Old Testament is the same as the message of the New Testament. They were saved by grace through faith just as we are, and their inheritance as believers is the heavenly city just as it is our inheritance.
abe: The whole drama that points to the Messiah and to our heavenly Promised Land, did of course have to be played out on Planet Earth, and I believe the Jews of earthly Israel are still part of that playing out. But there is only one Promised Land for believers and that's the heavenly city, whether you are a Jew or a Gentile.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 3:42 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 9:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 88 of 280 (779896)
03-09-2016 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
03-09-2016 8:32 AM


Re: The Earth for Israel. Heaven for the age of grace.
But it was a city made in heaven that is going to come down from heaven to the earth. It is all about the land for Israel. By going back to the prophet Isaiah, Jesus revealed to his apostles that the blood of the second Adam was the basis by which Israel’s Kingdom program and Israel’s New Covenant could continue on.
Remission of sins, the complete clearing away of Israel’s sin debt could now be accomplished just as Jeremiah, Israel’s New Covenant Prophet had proclaimed. Once the sanctuary is purged, the offerer has settled his debt, he’s repaired the damage he caused. He’s fully atoned, and Yahweh is no longer repelled by the impurity that marred his sanctuary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 8:32 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 9:12 AM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2935 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 89 of 280 (779898)
03-09-2016 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Bob Bobber
03-09-2016 9:01 AM


Re: The Earth for Israel. Heaven for the age of grace.
The Pauline Epistles will of course be of use as an historical record of what will then be past, just as we have the record of Israel’s history in the Old Testament now. Even now, the nucleus of the Remnant is being prepared, hundreds of Israelites are believing in Christ as the Messiah, who know nothing of him as the Savior.
The last days of this present age of grace, the time prior to God closing the door on the program through which he is accomplishing his heavenly purpose today, what will it be like when God says enough is enough on his program for the heavenlies, so he can pick up where he left off with his program for those who will inherit the earth. 


There will be a people for God on the earth during those eventful years, there will be the remnant of believing Israelites, the 144,000 sealed ones, the great multitude, another bodies of faithful ones who are referred to all through the Book of Revelation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 9:01 AM Bob Bobber has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 03-09-2016 11:09 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 280 (779907)
03-09-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Bob Bobber
03-08-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Poe Troll (God Haters)
Bob Bobber writes:
I gave you answers Poe Troll.
I asked you who created the fallen angels. Does your God take responsibility for his own actions or not? If he doesn't, how can he hold us responsible for our actions? How is your position not "cafeteria Christianity"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-08-2016 12:29 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-09-2016 10:42 AM ringo has replied

  
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