The Marketing Of Christianity

phat writes:Thus could Paul as a Jew have reconciled Jesus Christ as God with the idea that God has no form?

jar writes:What makes you think Paul saw Jesus as God?

jar writes:I don't think anyone doubts that Paul experienced something dramatic, but that is not evidence that anything really happened, only that Paul believed something happened.

jar writes:Why would that God seek out humanity or worse yet, certain humans, instead of pond scum?

jar writes:I did find eggs that were not runny and sometimes answers to the test but never any evidence or even a way to tell if there was evidence of GOD, spirit, soul. impartation, or a relationship with such a creature.

Phat writes:And why did Saul flip a 180 and switch sides?

jar writes:We will never know but there are several versions of the story and each involves some kind of spiritual event.

Phat writes:For one thing Paul got knocked off of his horse and flipped a 180 regarding his opinion towards Christians. For a devout Jew who had always believed in the Creator of all seen and unseen, to even mention Jesus as anything more than human would itself be idolatry, would it not?
Besides...if an unseen voice told me that it was jesus whom I was persecuting, I would check my water supply to make sure it had no alcohol in it..then be forced to identify the source of the voice...God or satan. What other options would Paul have?

Phat writes:Are you saying that God does not favor any one of us any more than He favors a random rabbit in the woods?

Phat writes: Do you have any reason to doubt that the "spiritual events" were genuine?

Phat writes:Deuteronomy 30:1-20 offers up the full warrenty.

Phat writes:Logically I dont see God micromanaging the weather based upon the sins of America...or any other nation, for that matter.

jar writes:Paul did not get knocked off his horse he just changed sides. That happens. He may well have had an hallucination or epileptic fit or sun stroke or any number of things; plus you are cherry picking the version of the story again. The story changed and evolved over time and there were even contradictory versions.

The creator of all that is seen and unseen says it was all good. That's not the unknown author of John trying to sell his product but rather what the Bible claims God said.

Why should man rate higher than pond scum EXCEPT that is what humans want to be the fact?

I have no reason to think they (spiritual tales in the Bible) were genuine. I have no doubt that Paul thought he had a calling but that only says Paul thought he had a calling not that there really was a calling.

Phat writes: I have never read the contradictory versions...do you have a link to them?

Phat writes: Are you saying that "The Bible" is different from "John"? Who wrote the part that supports your argument?

Phat writes: Do you have any more reason to think the tales were fabricated than you do that the tales were genuine? Why or why not?

jar writes:Just as with almost ALL of the stories in the Bible we have no idea who wrote them or edited them or redacted them.

jar writes:The God character does not say humans are pretty good, he says all that he had made was very good and that includes pond scum.

Phat writes:Do you have any more reason to think the tales were fabricated than you do that the tales were genuine? Why or why not?

jar writes:Of course I think they were fabricated, particularly when there are examples where any honest person who looks can see that the tales expand and evolve over time and as different folk spin the tale to suit the audience of the period. Like all folk tales they got exaggerated and modified to fit the needs of each reteller.

Phat writes: I think you are biased. Lets say for the sake of argument that most of what we read was genuine. Would this change your belief statement in any way?

Phat writes: It depends on whom you ask. There is far from a majority agreement in this area. The International Bible Society has this statement:

quote:

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Many people contributed to the writing of the Bible. In fact, the Bible is a diverse collection of writings from about 40 main contributors30 in the Old Testament and 10 in the New Testament.
Some books are actually collections of writings from several authors, not just one. For example, while many people think of David when they think of the book of Psalms, there are individual psalms attributed to Moses, Asaph, a man named Ethan, and the sons of Korah.

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Thus, people may not *know* with 100% accuracy who wrote what, yet we are far from clueless in this area. I believe that there are many critics out with an agenda to destroy the importance of the Bible and who thus spread rumors that Jesus is but a myth,Numerous authors and redactors had hidden or ulterior motives to market a wholesale con or to discredit Judaism or to destroy faith in the books...etc etc etc. So I disagree with your assessment.

Phat writes: How about cancer cells? How about the Ebola Virus? The common cold virus? Polio? The list goes on....do you get my point? Sounds like this God of yours is against humanity and is vile and evil!

jar writes:You did read their Statement of Faith didn't you? How can you possibly trust an organization to investigate the origin of the Bible stories that begins by stating the conclusion? They are a perfect example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

jar writes:Phat, it is not what I say, it is what the Bible says. And yes, often the God(s) of the Bible ARE vile and evil.

jar writes:No, the GOD I mention as GOD is not really a God or a god.As I said, the one thing they have in common is being Gods or gods, things we as humans have or can describe. Unfortunately, humans are limited by our hardware; we are natural critters and have no experience beyond the natural world. We have no means of testing or even describing anything except in terms of how we experience the natural world.The issue as I have said many times in the past is one of specificity. If we consider a phrase like "Christian God" we can get some general agreement but no universal catholic (in the lower case sense) agreement. This appears to be true of all the various Gods.Now when it comes to gods we find even greater specificity. We can describe Ganesha or Apollo or Thor in pretty great detail, outline their capabilities and limitations, describe their appearance, list their attributes. Very seldom are they a general or universal ultimate.But GOD, if GOD exists is completely beyond anything we find in the Natural World. As long as we too are part of the Natural World we are limited.

Phat writes:Fair enough. Of course, I could also claim that a source in which you quote is biased...but await your link. Do you have a source from a well regarded "expert" that states that we don't have a clue who wrote much of the Bible?

Phat writes: OK, lets talk GOD then. The God of the Nicene Creed. IIRC you see GOD this way:

Phat writes:Do you know where the Trinity Doctrine originated?

Phat writes:Why is it that people have a hard time with the 3 in 1 concept as a threat to monotheism?If I state that there is a sun, light,(sunlight) and heat(created through thermal energy from the sun) it seems easy to understand that I am still talking about and referring to one sun.

jar writes:the concept was never intended to be a reasonable or rational subject, rather it was simply a tool to use against perceived heresies.

Phat writes:To some of us, the concept of truth and/or belief are always relative to the individual. Thus we could also say that various clubs are relative to their members--as well as club bylaws and customs. Can any one religion or club claim Original status and label the rest as heretical?

Phat writes:Do you personally feel as if belief and practice are strictly between the individual and GOD as they understand Him(Her,etc) or even strictly themselves?

Phat writes:What would be the traits of a "good Christian Chapter" in your opinion?

Phat writes:You always favored the Book Of Common Prayer, IIRC. What made you decide to join the Episcopal Church?

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:9-11)

jaywill writes: Could you please point out the word "horse" in the passages about Paul on the road to Damascus ?

jaywill writes:So an epileptic fit changed Saul of Tarsus from a persecutor of the Christian church to an apostle ?So a well planned hallucination ( enacted by who ?? ) changed Saul 180 degrees around from a persecutor of the Christians to a disciple / evangelist / apostle and author of some 13 or so books of the New Testament ?

jaywill writes: Please produce three notable versions of the testimony and explain how it evolved. Show us the embellishments over time and explain its alleged "evolution".

jaywill writes: What benefit did he derive from a delusional calling, except a life of much suffering, persecution, imprisonment, betrayal, criticism, and ultimately beheading from Nero ?The same Spirit of Jesus Paul experienced many of us experience. We can vouch that he pioneered deeply into this reality.You are going through a lot of effort to persuade yourself that the New Testament is not worthy of taking seriously.

jaywill writes: The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ = the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. That is the Trinity

The story of Paul's conversion also evolved over time and as different people retold the story. The first and earliest mention is found in 1 Corinthians 15:8. Here is that passage in context.Paul in 1Cor 15:3-8 writes:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.It's a very simple mention that Paul saw Jesus but void of any of the details found in latter stories.The next recounting is from somewhat later and again it is pretty simple and in fact says it was a revelation from God (not Jesus) and that he was not speaking with flesh and blood.Paul in Galatians 1:11-16 writes:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:As an aside, Galatians is one of those very important interoffice memos (and just as today, we don't have access to the original but only copies from about a half century later) where Paul begins outlining his new definition of Pauline Christianity.Still later, the author of Acts, attributed to Luke, recounts yet another version but now there are far more details and far more stagecraft.Luke in Acts 9:3—9 writes:
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.The story picks up at verse 13.Luke in Acts 9:13—19 writes:
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.In Acts 22 the story is recounted another time but again the details are elaborate and the details contradict the earlier version.Paul said to be speaking in Acts 22 writes:
22 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.