The Marketing Of Christianity

I don't believe that jar or ringo is being insulting, Faith. They are simply challenging people to think a bit rather than have everything spoon fed to us as if we can't.It takes a thick skin to hang around here.Besides, you have to understand jars background. I don't always agree with him. But he was taught to think. If you really look at it, jar and ringo are doing us a favor by challenging us to really examine our beliefs and to better defend them rather than simply get mad and brand them as heretics.

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Christians often say that being a christian is about being "Christ-like". In your book, Jesus fed and healed thousands no matter their religion. Are you implying that it was an error and not something he should have done because humans are selfish?

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No.

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Funny how the god you market is like humans.

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We are made in God's image and in His likeness (Gen. 1:26,27). So some correspondence is expected.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I wasn't clear, Phat, I'm not insulted personally, God is. Jar's "ability to think" has succeeded in accomplishing only the destruction of the truth of the Bible. And unfortunately he may find in the end that he's responsible for the loss of others' faith. I don't envy him that.You're welcome to the supposed "favor" -- it's just a wearisome task to me.

No, not at all. I am simply pointing out that it is less effective than simply helping people with no strings attached. It wasn't documented so we cannot know. Well, you are assuming that only 120 received the message. Even if they didn't receive it, so what? He fed them in accordance with his will and with the full knowledge of who would respond or not. You don't start a conversation about the Love of God by telling people what God, a perfect being, needs. Jesus opens the door to discuss such things at a later time by first addressing their physical needs and by demonstrating what the love of God looks like. And those were already believers... That was my point about placing the cart before the horse. Let the horse lead the cart, not the cart leading the horse... the rest will fall in to place. And if that is man's nature, whose fault is that? Do you blame the created being or the one who created it? I'm not pitting them against each other, I am saying they should go hand in hand.

I was responding to jaywill, who said in Message 126:

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Jesus had only 120 who cared enough to await the next stage in God's move on the earth.

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He was the one who implied that it was "everybody", not me.

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No, not at all. I am simply pointing out that it is less effective than simply helping people with no strings attached.

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I see.

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me:

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But after His resurrection there were only 120 followers in the upper room ready to follow Him in His next move. Where were the thousands who were fed and healed ?

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Hyr:
It wasn't documented so we cannot know.

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We don't know the precise numner healed. We are secure to believe (if we want to ) that thousands witnessed His miracle/s. Acts 1:15 tells us that about one hundred and twenty were in the upper room praying together.

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Well, you are assuming that only 120 received the message.

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That's right. Why not? To remain together for ten days praying requires some kind of deliberate fortitude. That fortitude, I logically assume, had its source in the instructions of Jesus to do so according to His instructions (Luke 1:49; Acts 1:4) .

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Even if they didn't receive it, so what? He fed them in accordance with his will and with the full knowledge of who would respond or not.

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As I review the New Testament "His will" ie. the will of God, encompasses much more than just this feeding. The "will" of God may include a feeding like this but it certainly doesn't end there.There is also the matter of God's permissive will and His perfect will. Man's tendency may lean towards understanding God's will to merely be what God will permit. A fuller appreciation of God's will includes not just this but what His plan is, what His purpose is.Sure, God permits me to just obtain a good meal and go off on my own way, assuming the will of God has been done. But Jesus taught about God's will in a more extensive sense.See John 17 for example.
And see the whole book of Ephesians as another example.In the synoptic Matthew the will of God in chapters 5 through 8 consists of quite more than simply the material neediness of man being met. I think you may be talking about abuse on the other extreme. The Apostle John taught the practicality of expressing the indwelling eternal life in caring for the practical need of the Christian brother. And there are similar exhortations about the practicality of brotherly love.
Since Christ is balanced He is ready to expand in both aspects in those seeking to live through Him.

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You don't start a conversation about the Love of God by telling people what God, a perfect being, needs. Jesus opens the door to discuss such things at a later time by first addressing their physical needs and by demonstrating what the love of God looks like.

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This is not necessarily true. Some people have all the physical supply they practically need yet feel empty of purpose and meaning.There are also those who are rich yet have no real peace within. They need peace towards God.

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me:
These consecrated men ministered to the Lord Jesus being concerned for what God's need was. Surely people have needs. But God has His need too. And these men were calibrated right, setting aside time to ascertain what God's need was.
And those were already believers...

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hyr: That was my point about placing the cart before the horse. Let the horse lead the cart, not the cart leading the horse... the rest will fall in to place.

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At this point without going back to read all your comments before I jumped into the discussion, would give me a clearer idea of what you meant.However, it is quite exemplary that the leading teachers and prophets in the church in Antioch were proactively seeking to minister to the need of God.However you would consider the spread of the Gospel, preaching and announcing the good news has its place and was commanded by Christ.He does desire that the preacher be living what he is announcing so that the message and the messenger are one. We announce the Jesus Christ that we live. And we seek to live the Jesus Christ that we announce.One theologian put your view perhaps in these words - "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." I would not go that far. But the point of the saying is a good one.
The point of living out Christ in your preaching is a good point.At the same time Paul asks "And how shall they hear without one who proclaims Him ? (Rom. 10:14c)

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And if that is man's nature, whose fault is that? Do you blame the created being or the one who created it?

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So you want to move from this matter to another, concerning who to blame for man's fallen nature ?Another reason to announce the Justification through the redemption of Christ is that men obtain peace with God regardless of how strenuously they carry on the philosophical debate as to who is the blame for the fall of man.I would tell the thoughtful sinner that though the paradox of man's sinful condition is perhaps unsolvable in a total philosophical sense, they nonetheless may have the peace of Christ which surpasses every man's understanding.Since we were talking about practicality, this is important. There are paradoxes which I admit I cannot explain to the fault finder's full satisfaction, or even perhaps to my own. But the know God, to know Christ, and to know the Holy Spirit's salvation furnishes a peace with God which seems to practically supply the peace towards God. This question of who is the blame for the fall of man is too tough for me. I might be able to answer an easier question.But Christ's incarnation, life, death, resurrection and indwelling as the life giving Spirit guards our hearts and our thoughts in the realm of this wonderful Person and His love. Nothing can separate us from this love of God which is in Christ Jesus.So I urge people to step into the sphere of this love of Christ. Perhaps in eternity we will see the mystery of God's overall providence more clearly to answer the philosophical question Well, whose to blame for this whole need for salvation anyway ??" Does not having the answer to that question interfere with wanting to believe in the Son of God ? Do you doubt that you have sinned or that others have sinned against you, because you're not clear who to ultimately blame for those sins?

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I'm not pitting them against each other, I am saying they should go hand in hand.

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Point taken there.
The workers should coordinate together their varied functions.
That everything is done with Christ, by Christ, and in the empowering of Christ is paramount.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I have a question for you, Faith. Do you believe that it is necessary to believe in a literal Bible as a condition of salvation? I know that jar doesn't but I'm not sure of jaywells views on it. Also maybe I should clarify what I see as literal.I once saw a chart where some marketers attempted to explain the difference between Word for Word Literalism and Thought for Thought Literalism. The translation comparison charts show how the authors view each translation on the spectrum.Personally I see some Bible stories as parables or lessons. some say the book is an anthology. Some say that much of it is mythological, but I personally dont see that. I believe that the entire book (or books) is inspired by God....but I'm still having difficulty grasping how God explains things through humans to other humans.Edited by Phat, : fixed boo boo

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Jesus had only 120 who cared enough to await the next stage in God's move on the earth.

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I would think that anyone with a brain--if they believed in God---would care what He was going to do next.Some say that God Himself could care less about us. Once he gave us wisdom and life, he expected us to grow up and leave the nest. Others believe that the whole world is His nest.I would imagine that the upper room bunch cared and felt that prayer and fasting mattered. They wanted to be on the cutting edge of Gods big moves regarding the future of humanity.

Wanting His children to grow up does not imply that He doesn't care about them. That's a misuse of the analogy.

But the stories do tell us something about what the leadership did, for example the appointed Stephen a s a deacon and his job was to feed and clothe and comfort the poor and needy of Jerusalem. Not not the poor and needy Jews of Jerusalem but the poor and needy.Jerusalem at that time was a cosmopolitan city with far more than just Jews and Stephen like Jesus was not sent to see to the needs of just Jews.Prayer and fasting may the praying and fasting folk feel better but has never fed the hungry, clothed the naked, comforted the sorrowful, healed the sick, educated the children, sheltered the homeless or much of anything else.

How so? I would argue that prayer and fasting both help in these matters though you may scientifically have an argument.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I don't know what the cut-off point is -- that is, how far you can go with not believing parts of it -- but I think it's risky to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe to be true as written. The term "literalism" can give a false impression so I prefer to say "true as written" -- so a figurative part is to be read figuratively for instance. Otherwise I mean "word for word" it's all to be believed. If it's presented as history it should be read as history and not as a parable. Genesis is all written as history for instance, all of it including the Creation history, the history of Adam and Eve and the Fall, the history of Noah and the Flood. So is Job, Ruth, Esther, Jonah etc., to name a few books people may like to read as if they were fiction. God the Holy Spirit speaks to their spirits and they report what He said in writing. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Please explain how prayer or fasting feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, shelters the homeless, comforts the sorrowful, heals the sick, educates the children or anything else that simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick, educating the children or anything else even without prayer or fasting?What, other than marketing, does prayer or fasting add?

Prayer and fasting bring God closer to us and make his will clearer -- that has been my experience -- so if He's calling for a particular work for the poor for instance, we'll get the message more clearly what He wants us to do.

Please explain how prayer or fasting feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, shelters the homeless, comforts the sorrowful, heals the sick, educates the children or anything else that simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick, educating the children or anything else even without prayer or fasting?So are you claiming that Christians are unable to see that there are people that are hungry. naked. homeless, sorrowful, sick and ignorant without being told or that Christians should only be feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick, educating the children that they are designated through prayer and fasting?