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Author Topic:   Ruling out an expanding universe with conventional proofs
Phat
Member
Posts: 10082
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 211 of 223 (781450)
04-04-2016 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by starlite
04-04-2016 2:27 PM


Expanding Universes have to start somewhere
I like that you have a quick mind! What we try and do around here is to keep our science in the =science forums and our beliefs in the other ones. I do understand, however, that if you are a scientific creationist, you have to juggle your beliefs and facts around while you test and examine them--so we can expect a bit of overlap.

Keep up the good work. Show the other members respect even when they diss you. Its sorta like turning the other cheek.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:27 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 4:43 PM Phat has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(3)
Message 212 of 223 (781472)
04-04-2016 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by starlite
04-04-2016 2:27 PM


Let's not quibble over terms here. If all that is the universe came sailing out of that little sweet nothing I think we can refer to it as a thing. If we refer to the universe as a thing, why not!?

Whatever thing you are referring to, it cannot be the singularity.

If there was no singularity what would have expanded!!?

The Universe, which the singularity is not.

quote:
There has never been nothing.
Like you would know.

Huh? I'm talking about what the Big Bang theory says, this is not a statement of knowledge that I have.

Obviously there was no time in the created universe before the universe existed!

Exactly, so I should never see you type about where the Universe came from.

Says you who couldn't possibly know. Why even talk?

Nobody knows anything, hurray, there's no reason for us to converse.

Now, if you want to talk about what the Big Bang theory says (as per the forum that this thread is in), then I'm pretty sure we can talk about that.

Never never land then. OK. Fantasy. Speculation. Modeling based on earth time and space and etc.

No problem. Science and scientists will continue forward figuring things out and solving problems while you sit back and wallow in your ignorance proclaiming that it is all a bunch of bullshit.

Nobody cares.

quote:
Similarly, the Universe never reaches the singularity.
I'll say!!

quote:
The singularity is not a point in time where the Universe exists.
Well put!

If you understand these things then why do you post to the contrary?

So if there was no magic singularity, what could have expanded or done anything?

The Universe, itself.

The singularity is not a thing nor is it a state of the Universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:27 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 4:54 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 213 of 223 (781476)
04-04-2016 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
04-04-2016 2:56 PM


Re: Expanding Universes have to start somewhere
Except science about the origins of life or the universe IS belief and nothing at all else.

tks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 2:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 5:52 PM starlite has responded

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 214 of 223 (781478)
04-04-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2016 4:27 PM


quote:


quote:
Whatever thing you are referring to, it cannot be the singularity.
OK looks like we need to do baby steps with you then. If there was no singularity little soup thingie (sorry if I get technical) then do you claim the universe would still have expanded? One assumes that what expanded was that little hot soup, no? Otherwise what was it exactly?

quote:
The Universe, which the singularity is not.
The universe then had to be real small to expand. So what does a singularity have to do with it if it was not from the hot soup singularity it expanded? You think the hot soup was just an observer on the sidelines?

quote:
Huh? I'm talking about what the Big Bang theory says, this is not a statement of knowledge that I have.
Well you admit the theory is not based on knowledge? Good start.

quote:
Nobody knows anything, hurray, there's no reason for us to converse.
Science should be about knowing something though. Get back to us when you do I guess.

quote:
Now, if you want to talk about what the Big Bang theory says (as per the forum that this thread is in), then I'm pretty sure we can talk about that.
So talk. We can keep in mind it is a fairy tale and you admit not knowing.

quote:
No problem. Science and scientists will continue forward figuring things out and solving problems while you sit back and wallow in your ignorance proclaiming that it is all a bunch of bullshit.
In your dreams perhaps. So far we see you post only the latter.

quote:
If you understand these things then why do you post to the contrary?
Because creation is where the universe came from so obviously there was no time here before that! You can say it was the hot soup that was here, but you admit not really knowing. Many call that religion.

quote:
The Universe, itself.
So the teensie hot soup was not a singularity? It was what, just the little non thing the whole universe came from? Or...the universe was here just real small!? Be clear with your stories man.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 4:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 9:16 PM starlite has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10082
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 215 of 223 (781493)
04-04-2016 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by starlite
04-04-2016 4:43 PM


Re: Expanding Universes have to start somewhere
starlite writes:

science about the origins of life or the universe IS belief and nothing at all else.

This is what you have been taught. You want to believe it, right?

I am a believer. I can say to myself that I know that there is a God. If you read any of my posts in the belief forums, you will see my arguments. Were I teaching a class, however, it would not be wise to teach that God is knowable. It would be more honest to teach that God is believable and to explain my logic.

Why not briefly share your belief about Jesus and Creation? Even though this is a science forum, I will allow some leeway for the sake of getting to understand the basis of your reasoning.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 4:43 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 8:49 PM Phat has responded
 Message 223 by Theodoric, posted 04-05-2016 4:46 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 216 of 223 (781505)
04-04-2016 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
04-04-2016 5:52 PM


[/quote]
quote:
This is what you have been taught. You want to believe it, right?
No, I was taught science was something akin to knowledge. It took time to realize it is a joke when it comes to origins.

quote:

I am a believer. I can say to myself that I know that there is a God. If you read any of my posts in the belief forums, you will see my arguments. Were I teaching a class, however, it would not be wise to teach that God is knowable. It would be more honest to teach that God is believable and to explain my logic.

Since we are being honest, do you think Jesus created the world and heavens...or that He sort of sat in the sidelines while the big bang dunnit?

quote:

Why not briefly share your belief about Jesus and Creation? Even though this is a science forum, I will allow some leeway for the sake of getting to understand the basis of your reasoning.
I accept that Jesus created it all.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 5:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 8:56 PM starlite has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10082
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 217 of 223 (781507)
04-04-2016 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by starlite
04-04-2016 8:49 PM


How A Creator Creates
Since we are being honest, do you think Jesus created the world and heavens...or that He sort of sat in the sidelines while the big bang dunnit?
I believe that He created the Heavens and the earth. How He did it is a mystery. Who is to say that He didn't "light the fuse" as the T-Shirts say?

I see your argument that basically says that science is as much of a belief as anything else...but you cant expect scientists to simply say that GOD did everything and be content with that. Scientists are always asking WHY and HOW.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 8:49 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 9:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 218 of 223 (781509)
04-04-2016 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
04-04-2016 8:56 PM


Re: How A Creator Creates
Genesis does not record any fuse lighting. As for what scientists may do or not, that is up to the individual. I merely point out they do not know at all, and that the tales about origin of life and the universe are pure religion, not any real science.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 8:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 219 of 223 (781522)
04-04-2016 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by starlite
04-04-2016 4:54 PM


quote:
Whatever thing you are referring to, it cannot be the singularity.

OK looks like we need to do baby steps with you then. If there was no singularity little soup thingie (sorry if I get technical) then do you claim the universe would still have expanded? One assumes that what expanded was that little hot soup, no? Otherwise what was it exactly?

The singularity is not the "hot soup". The hot soup is the Universe. The Universe was not the singularity.

The singularity isn't some thing that exists. As I've been saying, think of it like an asymptote.

As the Universe approaches it, the Universe gets hotter and denser. But the Universe never actually gets there.

Here is the plot of 1/X (we'll only use the positive portion):

Starting at (1,1); as we keep going to the left towards the y-axis, the value of the function keeps getting larger and larger. As X approaches zero, the function approaches infinity. But if you ask what happens at zero, then the function becomes undefined. You can't divide by zero.

That's kinda like how in the Big Bang Theory, as we go closer towards the beginning then it gets hotter and denser. But the Universe does not exist at the point of the singularity, it doesn't come from the singularity, it never was the singularity, the singularity never burped it out.

Does that make sense?

The universe then had to be real small to expand. So what does a singularity have to do with it if it was not from the hot soup singularity it expanded? You think the hot soup was just an observer on the sidelines?

Obviously not, because I keep repeating that the singularity is not a thing that can do stuff.

You're basically asking what the y-axis has to do to get the value of the function 1/X to appear from it at an infinite value.


So talk. We can keep in mind it is a fairy tale and you admit not knowing.

I am talking. Start comprehending.

I don't care if you reject the Big Bang theory or not. But I am going to correct your mischaracterizations of it.

So the teensie hot soup was not a singularity?

No, it was not. The "soup" is the Universe. At no point in time does it exist as the singularity.

It was what, just the little non thing the whole universe came from?

The universe didn't come from it. It isn't a thing. It doesn't do stuff. Stuff doesn't come from it.

Because creation is where the universe came from so obviously there was no time here before that! You can say it was the hot soup that was here, but you admit not really knowing. Many call that religion.

Unfortunately, I don't share in your opinion that being a religion (is some derogatory place that) can be used to cast insults against my opponent's position (that I only think resembles being one), so your insult fell flat. But I am curious what you think is so bad about being a religion that you feel like you can tarnish my position with being one?

I have religious beliefs.

What the Big Bang Theory says (in layman's terms) is not one of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 4:54 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 9:24 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 220 of 223 (781524)
04-04-2016 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2016 9:16 PM


Ok so if you are right, we should not call the little hot soup that spawned the universe the singularity. That soup was the universe. Thanks for that. Nice to get the fable straight. I will have to get a second opinion of course, but we can go with that for now.

Edited by starlite, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 9:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-05-2016 10:28 AM starlite has not yet responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 221 of 223 (781536)
04-05-2016 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by starlite
04-04-2016 2:17 PM


Hi, Starlite.

starlite writes:

If if if. Bottom line is that your line and math is imaginary and a what if. No reality to it.

It's not my line or my math. You're the one who brought up the singularity, and I'm just explaining what it is. As has already been explained, a singularity is just an "undefined" result in a mathematical formula. That's it.

Since you're thinking in terms of 'what if' questions, you can think of the singularity as the answer to a nonsensical "what if" question. The answers to

-----

starlite writes:

Ok so if you are right, we should not call the little hot soup that spawned the universe the singularity. That soup was the universe. Thanks for that. Nice to get the fable straight. I will have to get a second opinion of course, but we can go with that for now.

Arrogance and ignorance should never be mixed like this. If the only thing you're getting out of this is that you should pick different words when talking, then you haven't assimilated with Cat Sci is saying.

Your questions simply don't make sense. For example, this one:

starlite writes:

If there was no singularity little soup thingie (sorry if I get technical) then do you claim the universe would still have expanded?

I can't even tell what you think you're asking here. It seems like you've got some rather glaring misconceptions about how the reasoning process has played out. First of all, you've got the cause -> effect relationship backwards. The reasoning doesn't go "singularity -> therefore expanding universe." Rather, the reasoning goes, "expanding universe > therefore Big Bang." The singularity is just a result of the formulas giving wonky answers to nonsensical questions.

In a little more detail, there is evidence that the universe is expanding. I'm not a physicist, but I know that at least some of the evidence has to do with light from distant sources (such as stars and galaxies) being redshifted, which is the same concept as the Doppler effect when a car drives by on the road.

Since we have reason to think the universe is expanding, we can combine that with the known laws of physics to model what the universe would have looked like at different points in time.
At some points in time, the math suggests a universe of hot, quark-gluon plasma.
At other points in time, it suggests "swirling clouds of hydrogen mingled with plasma," or "atoms and planets and galaxies," etc.
And, at one particular point in time, the math only says, "undefined."


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:17 PM starlite has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 222 of 223 (781569)
04-05-2016 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by starlite
04-04-2016 9:24 PM


Ok so if you are right, we should not call the little hot soup that spawned the universe the singularity.

You also shouldn't say that the little hot soup spawned the Universe because the little hot soup is the Universe. It'd be no different than saying that yesterday spawned the Universe.

Thanks for that. Nice to get the fable straight.

You're welcome.

I will have to get a second opinion of course, but we can go with that for now.

Okay, let me know if you have any questions.

Do you now understand how what you wrote earlier is simply nonsense?:

quote:
a singularity existed you know not why or how, and burped out the universe for no known reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 9:24 PM starlite has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


(1)
Message 223 of 223 (781581)
04-05-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
04-04-2016 5:52 PM


Re: Expanding Universes have to start somewhere
Even though this is a science forum, I will allow some leeway for the sake of getting to understand the basis of your reasoning.

Why don't you stay in the Faith and belief forums where you belong? It really irks me when an Admin is in violation of the forum rules.

Can we get an Admin to clean up all of this faith and religion stuff in the science forums.

Phat you have been way out of line urging this guy on.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 5:52 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
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