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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
well for one thing, Jesus did both so I expect they have some value. It may take me awhile to do the necessary reading and study to give you a good answer, however. Be patient with me.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The "leaving the nest analogy" is about growing up. Even if the whole world is "His nest", you can't deny that God wants us to grow up, can you? ringo writes:
How so? That's a misuse of the analogy. And remember that when the Bible was written, extended families were the norm. Grown-up children didn't "leave the nest" in the sense that they moved out of their father's house - but they were expected to grow up, marry and bring their spouses into the nest.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I would tell the thoughtful sinner that though the paradox of man's sinful condition is perhaps unsolvable in a total philosophical sense, they nonetheless may have the peace of Christ which surpasses every man's understanding. The point is that it is circular logic. God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up. That's like a firefighter who is secretly an arsonist who sets your house on fire just so that he can create for himself the opportunity to rescue you from the condition that he caused in the first place.
Does not having the answer to that question interfere with wanting to believe in the Son of God ? Do you doubt that you have sinned or that others have sinned against you, because you're not clear who to ultimately blame for those sins? No, it's just that it's not relevant to whomever I sinned against or sinned against me. It is relevant when questioning the veracity of God's existence in the context of the bible. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I don't know what the cut-off point is -- that is, how far you can go with not believing parts of it -- but I think it's risky to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe to be true as written. You mean like excluding the verses of the bible that state that women in church must not speak and must have their heads covered (like Muslims)? Yeah, I can see how that kind of cherry-picking could be annoying. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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quote: John Frame argues that there is no worldview that does not contain circular logic. I think he would say Marxism, Capitalism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism or any other world view contains circular logic. Can you with reason prove that you can reason your way to truth ?I don't think you can do so without circular reasoning. Now in the case of God, He says He is the Alpha and the Omega. He says He is the Beginning and the End. He says He is the First and the Last. Seeing that God is the ground of our being and existence and our destinies consummate involving God, I sometimes wonder that thinking about reality will begin with God and end with God, therefore is necessarily circular. While I contemplate that, you can contemplate how to reason that with reason man can arrive at truth (without arguing in a circle).
quote: This has been contemplated by some. I have never been convinced that this has to be so. And if I were a Darwinist speculating that since the Big Bang nothing but deterministic materialism has predetermined everything, it does nothing to alleviate the mystery of choice of freedom of will. If the gray matter in my material brain only firing off synapses about everything I believe, then I can take no credit for "choosing" to believe the truth or "choosing" to follow after error. Materially I was determined to do one or the other based on interactions of atoms. Then "choosing" to believe anything would be an illusion. What you believe, whatever you believe, was predetermined by material interactions wholly apathetic to your "freedom" to decide for the truth.
quote: Some people may see it that way. Agnosticism or Atheism (usually based on a materialist view of reality) does nothing to solve the paradox, as I have tried to show above. If the Materialist Atheistic view is right, you didn't really choose to believe what you just told me to be the way the world works. No thanks to the Materialist for choosing what was true over what was not. Your gray matter just pre-deterministically fired off neurons in the brain. From the Big Bang these interactions just happened in that way. I'd rather go with real freedom of will to choose what is true. Though, I do admit, the total explanation of that is a hard matter for the limited human mind to grasp. I see God warning the first man Adam.I don't see blaming God for the ignoring of that warning. I do, however, see God's transcendent foreknowledge prepared to not be stopped in His will by man's disobedient exercise of his free will.
quote: From a pragmatic viewpoint, that's seems right to me at the moment. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
It's more geodesic than circular; it's a web. On a circle, you keep passing the same point over and over again - but you can navigate the logic on a web by coming at a point from different directions on different paths.
Can you with reason prove that you can reason your way to truth ?I don't think you can do so without circular reasoning.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Plus often when it comes to determining truth there is also evidence and that is far more solid than reasoning.
For example when it comes to the topic of the Marketing of Christianity there is sufficient evidence that only by misusing reasoning could anyone deny that Christianity is a product created by many folk but not Jesus and that it has been marketed most often by coercion, force, fiat, propaganda, innuendo and politics.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: It is not a geometry problem. And if you do wish to convert it into a geometry problem a theist could probably use the same tactic to address any contradiction you might want to rationalize in theology. I see no obvious reason why a clever theologian could not utilize the very same procedure to sidestep logical contradictions related to theology. ie. "Well, its a geodesic situation here, you know ?" Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You're the one who called it a circle.
It is not a geometry problem. jaywill writes:
The obvious reason is that theologians come to so many different conclusions. If Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Raelians, etc. were using that procedure, then they would all be inter-connected. Yet theologians seem to concentrate on how disconnected their conclusions are from the "wrong" conclusions. I see no obvious reason why a clever theologian could not utilize the very same procedure to sidestep logical contradictions related to theology. ie. "Well, its a geodesic situation here, you know ?" But as jar points out, unless there's some evidence to connect your conclusions to reality, it's just "turtles all the way down" - i.e. it's just unsupported logic; it's reasoning (whether sound or not) based on untested premises. A web of logic would be no better than a circle, unless it was supported at some of its points by evidence.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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The point is that it is circular logic. God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up. I realize that this is true. Allow me to use an analogy. Say that you had a child...one whom you were trying to discipline to stay close to you for his/her own good. On the one hand you wanted to protect your child from all harm On the other, you wanted them to have the freedom to grow and learn to deal with challenges in life. Lets take the analogy further. You are the Creator of all seen and unseen. Isaiah 45:7 writes: Critics may ask why you had to create disaster. Why allow evil to exist? Why allow darkness to exist? I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. One answer is the concept of free will.the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. synonyms:self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence.... Getting back to our analogy, if you told your child to stay indoors and never go outside of the house, they could always disobey you unless you had no such thing or place as outside. So in summation...yes, God saves us from a condition He initially caused. Our salvation, however, is a choice that we choose. Edited by Phat, : appallin spallinChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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One concept which stops many at EvC in their tracks from accepting GOD as real is the lack of evidence for a Creator and/or Jesus Christ:Alive Today.
Of the many Bible Studies and lessons which i have heard on this topic, it appears to me that GOD by design requires Faith rather than Evidence.
Faith vs Facts Vines talks of the word Faith in this context:quote: The story of Thomas illustrates this well.
John 20:24-29 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, We have seen the Lord! ...in other words, Thomas needed evidence. But he said to them, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. Notice that it was still a matter of his will.
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! 27 Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe. In other words, stop being skeptics that require evidence. You may never get it...and if you are ultimately wrong, it won't be Gods fault for not providing you with evidence. 28 Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God! 29 Then Jesus told him, Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: In other words, stop being skeptics that require evidence. In other words stop being rational. Which is, according to you, is a god given gift.
You may never get it...and if you are ultimately wrong, it won't be Gods fault for not providing you with evidence. Ok, I've become irrational, and god hasn't provided any clues, so now how do I choose the right god to believe in?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
John Frame argues that there is no worldview that does not contain circular logic... Again this worldview thing. I asked a question about what a worldview was in some threat and I got some amazing word-salad not meaning anything. Just a bunch of words thrown together. I looked up John Frame and it seems as if he is or was some theologian somewhere. In the end it seems to me that anyone who mentions the word 'worldview' is religious. I came to the conclusion that people writing about 'worldviews' all are religious and can't even imagine that some people are not religious and don't have 'worldviews'. They can't even imagine that people with no 'worldview' exist... Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
I realize that this is true. Allow me to use an analogy. Say that you had a child...one whom you were trying to discipline to stay close to you for his/her own good.. Well, if I were omniscient and had a child in 1980, a child I knew beforehand exactly when and where would bump into the same tree planted myself in 1980; and be a paraplegic for the rest of his or her life after that accident twenty or thirty or whatever years later; I would not have had the child or wouldn't have planted that tree there... Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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