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Author Topic:   Evidence for Evolution: Whale evolution
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 443 (646878)
01-07-2012 4:17 AM


Recent discussion.
There was a recent thread in here in which a pro-creationist proponent made a commendable effort to debate the idea that whales had evolved from land animals. That thread is worth a peek. It shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 443 (777223)
01-27-2016 4:09 PM


You guys are responding to some pretty old messages...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 443 (779797)
03-08-2016 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by AlphaOmegakid
03-07-2016 3:37 PM


Re: Fraud Alert! Dolphin with NO LEGS
duplicate, or nearly so.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 03-07-2016 3:37 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 124 of 443 (779798)
03-08-2016 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by AlphaOmegakid
03-07-2016 3:37 PM


Re: Fraud Alert! Dolphin with NO LEGS
Hand waiving! I need evidence. Where is your skeletal evidence of this dolphin to support your claims? You don't have any. You just can't claim homology, you must demonstrate it with evidence.
I am having some difficulty figuring out your position here. At worst, the whale evidence is simply consistent with the theory of evolution, a theory that is support with evidence that goes way beyond homology. In that case, we are using the theory of evolution to make conclusions about the history of whales, rather than using it to prove evolution.
So unless you are actually pointing to an issue that is contrary to the theory of evolution, then homology is a perfectly viable tool in tracing the developments of whale species. Not every paper is written as an attempt to discredit whatever theory of evolution or non-evolution you are pushing here. That issue has largely been settled for decades.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 03-07-2016 3:37 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 443 (782129)
04-17-2016 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by AlphaOmegakid
04-16-2016 10:51 AM


Re: Japanese paper
My previous position will still be held when we look at the actual evidence
Seriously, AOK, messages like this do not serve your cause very well. You predict that everyone here is a fool who argues against the evidence, and then you tell us that you plan to maintain your position prior to a discussion of the evidence.
We are 156 posts into this thread and to date your presentation has been quite poor. So far, you, and not your detractors, are the party who has exhibited the ability to disregard evidence. I fully expect that once your supposed evidence has been ripped into, you will be the fool still hanging onto his preconceived notions. You will hang onto any ambiguity as total vindication. That has been your behavior so far, and thus my statement is not a prediction so much as an observation. You are utterly incapable of conceding any point or even of acknowledging that your opposition has a point.
There has been some evidence of atavism presented in this thread. What do you think will be gained from showing he insufficiency of some other evidence? Weak, sophomoric, anecdotal evidence won't contradict a current opinion that is not based on that evidence; only evidence contrary to atavism will do that.
I'm anxiously awaiting to see what you have. But your characterizations of your opponents are ridiculous.
Edited by NoNukes, : You're vs your. Ugh.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 04-16-2016 10:51 AM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 04-18-2016 1:12 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 443 (782253)
04-21-2016 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Percy
04-21-2016 7:14 AM


Re: The Real Evidence of Whale Bones
In regards to the word "fraud," you are using it "recklessly without knowledge of its truth." Perhaps you are mistaken that the museum display is incorrect. Perhaps it is an honest mistake. Perhaps they know about the mistake and do not have the funds to update it. Perhaps the mistake was made so long ago that the mistake itself has become a part of history that they are reluctant to alter. Until you know that the display was configured to mislead, your charge of fraud is itself fraudulent.
I agree with you on this point. One creationist theme is to claim that scientists have manipulated museum displays and textbooks in an attempt to deceive the public about the strength of the evidence for evolution. For people who feel that way, it is of little use to explain the scientific insignificance of what is likely just an error, because they believe that the entire issue is about attempts to inflate scientific possibilities and speculation to the point of certainty.
AOK's presentation is of exactly the same as is the incessant whining about Haekels embryos and Piltdown man. And the response to the presentation is exactly the same. 1) here is what the real science says and 2) did you not instead promise to present contrary evidence and not some kind of belittling of current evidence?
Unfortunately, this stuff is the only game in town. As I recall, that fellow named Aaron did a much more credible job of presenting his ideas on whale evolution about five years ago. While he did not convince many evolution proponents, he seemede to have the respect of all participants. AOK does not measure up.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Percy, posted 04-21-2016 7:14 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 441 of 443 (806330)
04-24-2017 3:48 PM


Its obvious that no one can even suggest that whale spout location, happened by chance so that a mamalian can live under water and breathe air from the surface. Fish did not become mamals, and mammals (like a whale) were not fish, and did not step by step through the billions of years get the right spout hole location, and all the other qualities and abilities and god given adaptions, they have.
The summation from DavidJay is excellent. It is also telling.
Saying that your position is obvious is not an argument. It is an introduction to an argument. At best DavidJay hinted at questions for evolution supporters to address. He never presented much of anything other than assertions in support of his position. I think his best point dealt with asking for an explanation of the location of a whale's blowhole.
However DavidJay is not worth anyone's time. He does not respond to any points or questions in any meaningful way. He maintains a buffoon's idea of what the theory of evolution states; an idea from which he will not budge. He seeming does not understand basic ideas like selection, which makes it impossible to have any kind of meaningful with him.
On top of that, like many creationists, he seems to take on an air of superiority based on his lack of understanding of science and to ridicule debaters from the base of superiority. And of course, true to type, he declared himself the winner of the debate. Now, who else have we seen do that routinely?
Good for a laugh. Not much else happening here these days.
ABE:
Oops. Completely forgot about AO Guy who actually started this thread.
Well, he was slightly better than DavidJay. At least he knows how to promise to discuss something. Still waiting for some sign that he understood the objections folks raised.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

  
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