Summations Only

I like that idea too, though the idea was accepting Christ, not just the white man. If Christians really are forbidden self-defense there are lots of implications that aren't getting discussed here. You go into any dangerous situation unarmed except for prayer and the gospel, fully aware that you may die but that your purpose is that others be saved.Denying that there is a real danger is an obstacle to the necessary mindset. You may very well die. Talk about the Christian message being about loving others is meaningless unless it includes that possibility. If we extend the idea to, say, ISIS, missionaries would go to the Islamic militants armed only with the gospel and prayer, fully expecting to die, loving the people who would kill them, celebrating Christ while you are literally losing your head. This IS in keeping with the general message of the gospel.As Christ laid down His life for us we are to lay down our lives for others. "Dying to self" can be obeyed in many nonlethal ways, but surely literal death must be included when the unsaved people are determined to kill you.I've touched on this at my blog from time to time but never fully worked it through, the idea being that people are saved when you are willing to die for them.I'm not saying I think Luke 22 teaches this because I still think it's ambiguous, and I think there is grace for people of small faith, but the general message of self-sacrifice is certainly scriptural.The question of danger from governments, which is a major argument for the Second Amendment, may not be quite the same thing, I need to think that through better.

As often happens, I haven't the slightest idea where you are getting what you are saying, or even quite sure what you ARE saying. But I did not say I think He didn't mean them. You seem to have read me as saying the opposite of what I meant. I was behind everything I said about what is required of us as Christians. We ARE to die. I think there are different sides to this question about there ever being any justification for self-defense for a Christian, I think it certainly involves the fact that we are citizens of nations in which most people are not Christians, and the fact that Jesus did not address nations but individuals, for starters, but I have no doubt whatever that Christians are called to be ready to die for the gospel, and die in many different ways. The different levels make the conversation complicated but "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" and I've never doubted that. It MAY mean we should not own any means of self-defense but that's part of the complications. But somehow the argument hasn't gone in the right direction to have this discussion, and maybe it shouldn't be had on this thread anyway.Athanasius (I think): The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Come to Christ and die. abe: actual quote is "When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die. /abeFrancis of Assisi: It is by dying that we are born to eternal life (except I extend it to the effect of the gospel on others and not just on ourselves)Jesus: Unless a grain falls to the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit.Etc. etc. etc. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Jesus made a very clear opposition to what Moses said.But you seem to be completely missing my current emphasis. I'm not arguing about Luke 22, I've concluded that it's ambiguous, despite your opinion to the contrary, and gone on to the strong scriptural emphasis on NOT being armed, the points that can and should be taken as AGAINST self-defense by Christians.Willingness to die at the hands of ISIS so that some Islamic militants might be saved is not an argument for self-defense, but an argument that Christians are to die in order to achieve the spread of the gospel.I also wanted to make it clear that I'm not abandoning the idea that Christians may in some circumstances defend themselves, I'm just shelving it for now, and at this point I still don't see Luke 22 as you do.I am, however, quite ready to consider that self-defense should never be the Christian mindset. If that's where you are then perhaps you could answer the question I asked earlier whether you are prepared to die without any resistance or defense whatever, and that your family die as well, at the hands of unsaved people who want you dead, in order that they might be saved. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I think the situation with the mugger is fairly straightforward, a matter of helping the victim if there's any way that can be done, and I agree that mercy to the mugger is also right as long as no real harm has been done. (He may not want a meal though, he may be desperate for drugs). There is still the question whether it would help to have been armed in such a situation or not, and particularly if the mugger was armed for instance, but that's sort of a side issue for me at the moment.Because that's not really the situation I have in mind. I need to ponder this more though to figure out just what I do have in mind.Maybe it would help if I say that not ever being armed is the ideal situation for a Christian in my mind. I consider prayer and Bible truth to be powerful weapons. I defend gun rights and the second amendment because we live in a fallen world and at least unbelievers might be better off armed.But I need to think about this more.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

NN, I've probably misread some of your posts but that's only par for the course with you. I rarely understand what point you are trying to make -- or more accurately, why you are saying what you are saying, which often seems unrelated to anything I'm saying. I don't know if that's your fault or mine but it's a common experience that needs to be acknowledged. I have not been addressing anything to do with whether scripture either allows or recommends carrying weapons for the last half dozen posts or so (starting with Message 4755), although it's interesting that now you are saying it may allow them -- that's a big concession it seems to me though you probably think you've been saying it all along. In any case I am off that topic and trying to consider what I said is my view of the ideal scenario for Christians, which is that we always go unarmed and trust to God, to God's word, to prayer. You keep coming back to Luke 22 though apparently you think I'm the one doing that. This gets awfully confusing. So of course I have no idea what you think I think I need to think more about, for which you gave me a thumbs up, and I suspect you might have misread that too. Please let's not go on with this though, things are confusing enough -- for me anyway.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

And there's always the question of how many such incidents get reported too. Reading a biography of Merle Haggard recently, ran across an account of how he was on stage performing and saw way at the back of the crowd, it was an outdoor arena of some sort, his friend Bonnie being accosted by a man. Haggard let the band do its thing, left the stage and confronted the man with a gun. I'm sure that was never reported.

The incident occurred back in the 80s or 90s.
I have no idea if Haggard was a big gun rights guy or not. He apparently felt the need to have a gun with him when he was on the road, but that incident is the only time it was brought up at all.
I would suppose there are many such unreported incidents, that's all. Perhaps as it becomes more of an issue they will get reported more.

Such statistics aren't really meaningful unless we know something about the circumstances.

Of course I said nothing of the sort. Is that the best you can do?

I'd want to know how responsible or irresponsible the owners were, mainly, what kind of training they'd had, and that sort of thing. I don't see how just tallying accidents tells us anything unless we know those things.

I'm for anything that makes guns safer. Taking away guns from Americans is not an option so whatever makes them safer is what we need.

I'd mandate training, not take guns away. The other two cases, take them away.