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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Theodoric writes: The NRA argument is that there are millions of examples that good guys with guns stop bad guys with a gun. This study shows that there are not millions of examples. Right - that's a good point. The NRA and gun nut response is that such cases usually go unreported, but that's inconsistent with the study's data (indeed, with any study's data). The study said that there were 37 times more criminal homicides than justifiable homicides, and since around 1/3 of Americans own guns, if a successful defense against armed criminals were something that possession of a defensive weapon actually made possible then it would not be 37 times more, but something much less, something more on the order of 3 times more (i.e., invert the value of 1/3 that represents the number of Americans with guns). And if having a defensive weapon provided a significant advantage then it should be even less than 3 times more, proving that possession of a defensive weapon provided people with an advantage over criminals. But it's not and it doesn't. Not only that, it's nowhere close to 3 times. It's 37 times, more than an order of magnitude larger. There's no evidence in that study, or any study, of the advantages of defensive gun possession. Did we already note this study from last year: The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007—2011. It concludes:
So that baseball bat in the closet? Apparently just as effective as a gun, and I'm willing to bet that no 3-year old has ever found a baseball bat and killed himself with it. And this study didn't even consider the increased danger a gun in the home represents. While looking up that study I also came across this article: The Myth of Defensive Gun Use. Interesting excerpts:
quote: --Percy Edited by Percy, : Added missing word.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Taking these numbers at face value still falls short of an argument in my opinion. Surely violent crimes include things like robberies, car jackings for example. What generally happens to people who don't have guns when they encounter such situations? The 90,000 number seems to stand on its own merits. However the 160,000 number needs quite a bit of parcing out before we can see some kind of balance between the relative safety involved with having or not having a gun. Yeah, "safer" is kind of a fluffy term. But I would consider being safe as not being robbed or car-jacked, even if it wouldn't end in bodily harm to myself. So I don't really see the need to parse the 160,000. That's violent crime, that's not safe. Or, we could just drop the whole "safer" thing. About twice as many people defended themselves against violent crime with a firearm than people who died from a firearm. And that includes people who chose to shoot themselves with their gun, i.e. suicides. It goes up to about five times as many people defending themselves against violent crime with a firearm than there were homicides with a firearm. Guns are being used a lot more to defend people than they are to murder them, and that's a good thing.
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Cat Sci writes: Or, we could just drop the whole "safer" thing. Instead of dropping "the whole 'safer' thing" maybe the gun lobby could allow the repeal of legislation that prevents the federal government from funding authoritative studies that could answer such questions once and for all. But that's unlikely, so dropping the "safer" thing is probably more realistic.
About twice as many people defended themselves against violent crime with a firearm than people who died from a firearm. It would be helpful for people who don't recall the figures if you provided hard numbers. There are around 32,000 gun deaths annually from all causes. There are no generally agreed upon figures for the number of defensive firearm uses against violent crime, but even if there were, comparing it to total firearm deaths doesn't seem particularly meaningful. What do you think it indicates? As the study mentioned earlier stated (see The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007—2011), "Self-defense gun use occurs in fewer than 1% of contact crimes." If it takes 33% of Americans owning guns to cause a 1% defensive use rate, than if 100% of Americans owned guns the defensive use rate would rise to only 3%. So much for arming America to thwart crime. Even worse for that claim, defensive gun use doesn't reduce injury risk. --Percy
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
About twice as many people defended themselves against violent crime with a firearm than people who died from a firearm. Now try comparing people defending themselves from crime with a firearm against people perpetrating crime with a firearm.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2422 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: "Mentally ill" people on the SSRI (anti-depressant) drugs compared to those same types off of them, based on studies, is associated with large percentages of higher numbers of suicides and acts of violence in the "on" group in study after study. You were referencing the Swedish study that was releases in September 2015. I also referenced other studies. The Telegraph article should be the icing on the cake as it is broad in its coverage. Lets put these gun death numbers into perspective.
quote: The BMJ requires a subscription. I found the quote here: Why Psychiatry is Evil These deaths include all the "natural" deaths (not just ones from using a weapon) from chemically induced side-effects brought on by anti-psychotics (in addition to SSRIs which are anti-depressants). I think the gun issue is a side issue (though it is more of a complete red herring and terrible distraction based on the present situation) when one studies the history of gun violence and then places the historical timeline alongside the scientific studies. The mass shootings that have gained so much attention seemed to coincide with the psychiatric pill-pushing revolution, and infact the vast majority of shooters have had SSRIs in their system. The whole of the gun issue focus seems to be based on looking at just a small part of the puzzle of various factors that make up the collective whole of all the respective violent fatal events. The mounting scientific evidence backs up my conclusion more and more.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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So I don't really see the need to parse the 160,000. That's violent crime, that's not safe. Violent crime does not mean death or even injury. It means there was a threat that such a thing might happen, but did not, and that a gun was involved. But many people get through those things without a gun. On the other hand, death means death. What you are defending is that the mere fear that you might be exposed to a threat justifies the gun regardless of the 90,000 deaths. That a death for example, is equivalent or balanced by the fact that someone tried to strong arm you for you iPhone. I don't find such arguments the least bit persuasive. The value of a human life exceeds the value of your things, and violent crime encompasses lots of things and defending yourself with a gun includes situations where a life was taken needlessly. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2422 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Suicidality and aggression during antidepressant treatment: systematic review and meta-analyses based on clinical study reports | The BMJ
This is the study that the Telegraph referenced. Scientific American is covering it on their May 1 2016 issue.
quote:due to code issues I had to make an alteration (and it is difficult to explain my corrections as the code has messed that up too. Then just below, in the introduction. It actually says ..."in children and adolescents (aged <18 years"
quote: This is the Jan 2016 BMJ which covers Denmark work (I think). Different from the Sept 2016 Swedish study. The larger body of adults were found "insignificant" in increased acts of violence in the (referenced by Percy) Swedish study (from Sept 2015) too but if you clip it down to those adults under 25 then the increases are very significant. Actually, Percy likes to point out that "significant associations" should not be equated to "increases". There was also some evidence for associations of increased violence in those older than 25 in the Swedish study. I suspect up till age 30 (or so) but I remember they were grouped into a larger age group than just 25-30 or 25-25. Something like 25-44 I think. This is a developing issue but a lot of the evidence has been around for a long time. But Scientific American presents is a new evidence. The Hidden Harm of Antidepressants - Scientific American
quote: This is a longer article than the May 1 2016 article coming out. The link address url looks the same though.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Gunman fatally shoots Pennsylvania churchgoer after fight over seat at Sunday service.
Guns and religion, what could possibly go wrong?
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
‘He started crying like a little baby’: 11-year-old brags about shooting suspected home invader
That's quite the headline. According to 11-year old Chris Gaither the intruder was also armed, so Chris grabbed a 9mm handgun and when the intruder fled with a laundry hamper Chris emptied his 12-round clip, hitting the intruder once in the leg. I just can't tell you how much safer I feel knowing that somewhere in my neighborhood there might be another Chris Gaither just itching for an excuse to let loose with his 9mm. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
All it takes to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, right?
Or maybe all it takes to make a good guy do something stupid is to grant him delusions of power by giving him a gun. Concealed carry gun-wielder intervenes in domestic dispute and is shot dead. Read it and weep. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
From The Washington Post: Toddlers have shot at least 23 people this year
The headline says it all. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Toddlers have shot at least 23 people this year That map inside the article that indicates where the toddler shootings are concentrated is quite chilling. I suppose the response might be along the lines, what is a dead kid a week when 160,000 people defend themselves against a violent crime[1]? [1]by whatever definition of 'defend' and 'violent crime' is necessary and whatever period is needed to create the statistic. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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In today's news: Detroit girl, 5, shoots herself with gun found under pillow. From the article:
quote: Right. The only safe gun is one that's not there. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
From NBC News: Louisiana Girl, 5, Fatally Shoots Self While Playing With Gun
quote: Well of course it was unsecured. What good is a gun for home defense if it's secured? The father's .45 caliber gun had been left on a table where anyone could grab it at a second's notice, standard practice for effective home defense.
quote: Doesn't the sheriff's office know anything? That family was not safe until the father brought home a gun, and now this unpreventable tragedy has probably caused the sheriff's office to remove the gun from the home, leaving the family defenseless again. There were three kids in the home at the time. The mother and father of the children are divorced, and the children visit the father every other weekend. The court will probably immediately halt the father's shared custody privileges, but what about those children's safety? Does the mother have an unsecured gun sitting on a table out in the open? I sure hope so, otherwise those kids will be in even more danger. --Percy
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Texas stepdad shot and killed 3-year-old for jumping on the bed
You know what we need to protect children from? Transsexuals!
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