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Author Topic:   This belief thing
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 16 of 162 (782594)
04-26-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-26-2016 4:45 AM


Faith writes:
The Bible presents itself clearly as the revelation of the one true Creator God .... etc etc
Sure it does. Exactly as do all the rest.
The point is that there are many and various beliefs. You realise very quickly if you travel that the concept of belief is purely a matter of birth chance. Where you are born by and large determines what you believe.
Do you have a passport Faith?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 4:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 162 (782595)
04-26-2016 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
04-26-2016 10:50 AM


Sure it does. Exactly as do all the rest.
They actually do not. The Bible is absolutely unique.
What claims would you like to compare? I'll quote the Bible, you quote from whatever.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2016 10:50 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Admin, posted 04-26-2016 11:05 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2016 1:45 AM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 18 of 162 (782597)
04-26-2016 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
04-26-2016 10:57 AM


Faith writes:
They actually do not. The Bible is absolutely unique.
What claims would you like to compare? I'll quote the Bible, you quote from whatever.
I'm responding to a post from Faith, but this is to everyone.
This shouldn't be yet another thread where believers in an inerrant Bible attempt to prove the truth of the Bible. Given that the topic is This belief thing, the discussion is on another level. This thread is about the nature of belief.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 162 (782599)
04-26-2016 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
04-26-2016 10:21 AM


Re: Side Effect of Curiosity
According to the Qur'an the other two Judaic faiths, the peoples of the Book, had both become idolatrous which is why God had to send word to hopefully straighten things out. Unlike the Bible that has lots of unknown authors, the Qur'an was directly dictated to Mohammad from God through the angel Gabriel.
You may not like that answer but it is what the Qur'an says. It does recognize that you and the Jews do worship Allah so you at least got that much right.
AbE:
But there are certain beliefs that are common to most religions; that there are morality questions, that there is a God or gods, that there was a creation, the concepts of stewardship, community, spirituality, that life has value...
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:21 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 28 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:51 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 20 of 162 (782600)
04-26-2016 11:20 AM


the nature of belief
The only meaningful response to the OP that I can see is to give the Bible's revelatory overview of how all the religions came about, which I did.
If the topic is the nature of belief, I don't think it can be discussed meaningfully outside that context.
It would boil down in most cases to 1) just accepting what you were taught as a child and shaping your life accordingly.
2) There are also those who have personally experienced the spiritual realities behind the various religions, however, which puts their belief on the foundation of experience.
3) Christians regard their belief as a gift from God: God's opening our eyes to the truth. Evidence of believing the truth is such things as loving God's law, which fallen humanity can't do.
I don't think there's much else to the question of the nature of belief.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by vimesey, posted 04-26-2016 12:15 PM Faith has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 21 of 162 (782606)
04-26-2016 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
04-26-2016 11:20 AM


Re: the nature of belief
I don't think there's much else to the question of the nature of belief.
I understand your point of view, as someone of faith. For you, the question is indeed a little circular. For you, God exists, and so belief follows naturally.
Tangle of course, is coming at it from a non-believer's angle, and from that perspective, the question is much more interesting - why do so many people turn to scientifically unevidenced beliefs, of such variety - and (for me) why is it that they care so much about other people's beliefs that they can get downright hostile towards them - even kill them for having a different belief. I think it's deeper than a simple manifestation of tribalism - I think that there are aspects of belief of such comfort in a harsh, ephemeral and potentially meaningless existence, that a belief system can be vitally important in allowing people to cope with life. So vital, in fact, that they can be prepared to kill someone if they don't share that belief system - they can't accept any threat to it.
As I say, I know that you have a different perspective Faith - but if you're able to accept (temporarily and purely as an artificial premise for the sake of argument) that beliefs originate from people's own minds, then the question of why is an interesting and quite wide ranging one.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 11:20 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 162 (782608)
04-26-2016 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by vimesey
04-26-2016 12:15 PM


Re: the nature of belief
I understand your point of view, as someone of faith. For you, the question is indeed a little circular. For you, God exists, and so belief follows naturally.
Well, remember that I was an unbeliever for most of my life. I began to believe in supernatural things in my mid-forties, and became a Christian a few years after that. Until then, belief was incomprehensible to me.
The theories people have about it didn't convince me then and they don't convince me now. If I had a theory myself, at least in some vague and unarticulated sense, I think it would have involved assuming that people have had some experience that convinced them. I knew a lot of people into New Age beliefs and sometimes envied them. I thought they were irrational and that such things were destroying western civilization, but at the same time I envied whatever experience it was that gave them this sense of another world or a higher consciousness or whatever it was.
The idea that one could come to believe in God by reading the Bible would never have occurred to me. First I read a lot of books about religion. That went on for a couple of years until I was persuaded to Christianity, knew I was a Christian and that the Bible was God's revelation.
To me that was and is a rational belief. It is based on the testimony of witnesses to actual historical occurrences, including miraculous occurrences, it isn't about something that goes on completely inside a person as so much of it always seemed to be understood. I did have such experiences, however, mostly in the phase where I believed in the supernatural but not yet in Christ. Most of them were scary. I could say I learned about the reality of the demonic before I learned about salvation, and it can be dangerous for it to happen in that order. I then found out that a lot of people who were into New Age beliefs, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., had such experiences too.
Tangle of course, is coming at it from a non-believer's angle, and from that perspective, the question is much more interesting - why do so many people turn to scientifically unevidenced beliefs, of such variety -
Since you say "turn to" I'll assume you mean they didn't believe and then something happened that caused them to believe? Rather than simply growing up in a belief system? How about what I've said above as descriptions of ways it may happen -- through some kind of supernatural experience being one way, and through believing the testimonies in the written Bible as another. Both those ways do involve evidence by the way. I don't think anybody really believes anything without evidence.
and (for me) why is it that they care so much about other people's beliefs that they can get downright hostile towards them - even kill them for having a different belief.
I think this is a garbled misunderstanding of something that you'd need to be more specific about.
I think it's deeper than a simple manifestation of tribalism - I think that there are aspects of belief of such comfort in a harsh, ephemeral and potentially meaningless existence, that a belief system can be vitally important in allowing people to cope with life.
In my experience and observation, that's never the reason anyone comes to a religious belief, that's some kind of interpretation imposed on it by unbelievers. I don't doubt that comfort may be found in some systems of belief, but I don't think that's ever the reason a person becomes a believer in the first place.
So vital, in fact, that they can be prepared to kill someone if they don't share that belief system - they can't accept any threat to it.
I believe this too is a false interpretation that comes from the point of view of an unbeliever but perhaps you just need to be more specific so I'll know what you have in mind.
As I say, I know that you have a different perspective Faith - but if you're able to accept (temporarily and purely as an artificial premise for the sake of argument) that beliefs originate from people's own minds, then the question of why is an interesting and quite wide ranging one.
I've tried to give my view of it here, so you'll have to tell me how it fits with what you are saying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 21 by vimesey, posted 04-26-2016 12:15 PM vimesey has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 23 of 162 (782610)
04-26-2016 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
04-26-2016 9:49 AM


Cat Sci writes:
...they can enrich their lives
Absolutely, in more ways than one.
In Ancient Egypt the practice of selling mummified cat and dogs, birds as offerings to the gods was so profitable, they began to just throw any old thing in a bag of linen and pass it off as a mummy.
Article link
Edited by 1.61803, : spell

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 24 of 162 (782617)
04-26-2016 3:47 PM


Heinlein quote
A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.
Robert A. Heinlein, Friday

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 5:22 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 162 (782624)
04-26-2016 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Coyote
04-26-2016 3:47 PM


Re: Heinlein quote
I don't see any relevance in your quote to this thread, certainly not to anything I said. I explicitly said that in my experience comfort has nothing to do with why people start believing in a religion, and I also said nothing about faith in a "proposition." But perhaps you were just talking to yourself, or to somebody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Coyote, posted 04-26-2016 3:47 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 04-26-2016 7:41 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 26 of 162 (782627)
04-26-2016 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
04-26-2016 5:22 PM


Re: Heinlein quote
Faith, I did not reply to any of your posts, or to anyone else's posts.
My post was a general one, addressing the dichotomy between faith on one hand and lack thereof on the other.
And, as usual, Heinlein said it better than I could.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 5:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:21 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 162 (782630)
04-26-2016 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
04-26-2016 7:41 PM


Re: Heinlein quote
My post was a general one, addressing the dichotomy between faith on one hand and lack thereof on the other.
And, as usual, Heinlein said it better than I could.
Except if it doesn't address anybody's actual experience of faith, he didn't say anything of any value at all. Who, for instance, accepts "propositions by faith?" He has no understanding of faith at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 04-26-2016 7:41 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 162 (782632)
04-26-2016 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
04-26-2016 11:08 AM


Re: Side Effect of Curiosity
There is apparently no middle ground for me between "abandoning a thread" and dominating it because of all the discussion my posts generate.
Anyway, jar, you were supposedly answering this:
Faith writes:
Where does the Koran describe the idolatrous religions? They are exposed throughout the Bible, and Allah is one of them.
My point was that the Bible gives a history and explanation of the idolatrous religions as it does for many things in this world we wouldn't know about otherwise.
You answered:
jar writes:
According to the Qur'an the other two Judaic faiths, the peoples of the Book, had both become idolatrous which is why God had to send word to hopefully straighten things out. Unlike the Bible that has lots of unknown authors, the Qur'an was directly dictated to Mohammad from God through the angel Gabriel.
Mohammed had that view in common with Joseph Smith. Supposedly God sent them both as prophets to straighten out biblical religion. I suppose it would be interesting to compare what "God" said to his two different "prophets" but that would no doubt take us off topic here.
In any case the Koran does not offer a history and analysis of the origin of idolatrous religions, which is what I said the Bible does, and quite consistently too for a collection of writings by different authors.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 04-26-2016 11:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 04-27-2016 8:57 AM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 29 of 162 (782635)
04-26-2016 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
04-26-2016 10:21 AM


Re: Side Effect of Curiosity
Where does the Koran describe the idolatrous religions?
* As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected. (16:20-21)
* Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode. (18:102)
* They worship beside GOD idols that possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and they say, "These are our intercessors at GOD!" Say, "Are you informing GOD of something He does not know in the heavens or the earth?" Be He glorified. He is the Most High; far above needing partners. (10:18)
* Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (6:100)
* They even worship female gods besides Him; as a matter of fact, they only worship a rebellious devil. (4:117)
* Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers. (5:72)
And so on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 5:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 30 of 162 (782642)
04-27-2016 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
04-26-2016 10:57 AM


Faith writes:
They actually do not. The Bible is absolutely unique.
All books are unique. All faiths claim to be the truth. The people worshipping in the temples of Vietnam believe their version as fervently as you believe yours. The commonality is the need to believe in something, anything will do it seems.
For what it's worth, I think this 'belief thing' may be a bi-product of consciousness.
Knowledge that the future exists as well as the past forces us to think ahead, and knowledge of our certain eventual deaths forces ideas of perpetual life on us. Our imaginations and curiosity inevitably lead to superstitions and inventions designed to satisfy our need to know and understand and take some control of the future. Without rational, evidence based thinking and the scientific method, all they had was stories designed to explain the inexplicable.
The other side of the story is, of course, the fact that religious institutions and their leaders adopt and develop the beliefs to suit their own agendas and are able to extract political power, money and control from them.
It's all a very human construct.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 5:43 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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