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Author Topic:   This belief thing
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 162 (782708)
04-27-2016 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
04-27-2016 6:36 PM


It's an obvious logic error but, as we've seen with Faith's comments above, the belief is stronger than the logic. Faith simply can not believe that a fervant believer in Shinto has an equally strong claim to the truth as she does or that both could have invented, despite the fact that she believes other belief systems than her's have been invented.
I believe you have completely misunderstood what I'm saying. If I'd ever said that the fervency of my faith was evidence for the truth of what I believe you'd have a point, but I've never said any such thing. I'm quite aware that followers of all religions believe their religion is THE truth and that should go without saying, so this compulsion to inform me of it is just weird.
I believe I've said, though perhaps not clearly enough, that there are OBJECTIVE criteria for evaluating religions, that I was persuaded by the EVIDENCE given in the Bible to its truth over all other religions, by its account of historical events including miraculous events that demonstrate the character of God and His plan of salvation; and that my arriving at belief had absolutely nothing to do with some psychological or emotional condition of my own, some need I had to believe it, and I've certainly never claimed that my believing it to be the truth is evidence that it is the truth. So the fact that everybody believes their own religion is the truth is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it IS the truth or not.
I don't believe the psychological explanations given by unbelievers. If they apply in any cases at all of any conversion to any religion, it must be only in a very insignificant percentage of cases. Christian conversion is a REAL conversion by the way, as something in the person is ACTUALLY converted, meaning changed, from one state to another: one is "born again" of the spirit and now has a new spiritual perspective. But the term "conversion" is usually misunderstood to mean only the act of choosing a particular religion to follow.
Anyway that other kind of conversion which is a mere choosing is the question being addressed here -- what brings people to believe in something supernatural or transcendant anyway? I've given my speculations. I've answered in terms of truth claims. Let's drop that and just stick to the question of what motivates people to join a religion, any religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2016 6:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 4:15 AM Faith has replied
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 04-28-2016 9:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 47 of 162 (782709)
04-27-2016 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
04-27-2016 6:52 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
Phat writes:
If what you say is true, then even you have a need to believe in something. What is it, then? Humanity-at-large?
I'm speaking historically Phat - man has always invented stories about how all this came about, he's curious and he needs explanations for things. Causes and effects. Prior to scientific explanations of basic things like the movement of the planets, the evolution of species, the underlying bio-chemistry of life, invented belief systems is all they had.
There is no longer any need for lucky charms and auspicious omens, animal sacrafice, prayer and ancestors looking after our wellbeing, we now understand that it's all hokum.
It's now very obvious that if there is a god, it's not one that's behind any of the self-serving religions that we now have, he's a disinterested party.
I have no need for beliefs in things of that nature, my 'beliefs' - wrong word, maybe inclinations - are towards our human institutions of family, frienship groups, law and its instruments, education, equality, democracy and health services.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 04-27-2016 6:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 48 of 162 (782710)
04-27-2016 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
04-27-2016 6:36 PM


you've touched on some of the reasons.
Tangle writes:
It's also a puzzle to me that even though we observe the fact that humanity invents these things, it does not then naturally lead to the conclusion that the one that we ourselves are born into/subscribe to is not also man made.
To get to the point you outline requires several steps.
You skip over some basics.
For most people the fact that THEY (and the THEYs can be pretty broad and general) do something has little to do with what the WEs do. They are idolatrous. They worship false gods. They are not members. Well you know what THEY are like!
It requires an understanding of what evidence is; an understanding that based on many posts here at EvC is often lacking. Look at the posts where people point to stories of miraculous happenings as evidence, particularly miraculous happenings reported in the basic mythos of a culture or religion.
Next it requires a culture of questioning which is a culture often actively discouraged instead of encouraged.
Also needed is a requirement to even begin examination of beliefs. Unless there is some reason why stir the pot? It is the high nail that gets pounded down. What are you? Are you weird or something?
There has to be some training in the procedures, the techniques of discrimination and decision making. There needs to be training in looking at all the evidence and not simply rejecting those data points that refute a desired position.
And then there is the need to actually know something about the other options and not simply the caricatures and propaganda about other positions marketed within your particular framework of reference. It's easy to reject a creation that exists only to be rejected.
Familiar is comforting.
Membership is comforting.
Not questioning is easier than questioning.
Study is difficult.
Chick Tracts work.
Belief systems do change but usually either very slowly or by being intentionally and forcefully suppressed.
Atheism and Agnosticism as positions have been around at least as potentials for a long, long time but seldom has either system been in a position to successfully suppress religions and other spiritual beliefs.
Neither position has had a marketing machine anywhere near as pervasive as the marketing machine of most religions.
While religion has had the ability to unite disparate peoples to a common set of goals, neither atheism or agnosticism seem to offer similar cohesiveness and inclusion.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2016 6:36 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 49 of 162 (782720)
04-28-2016 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
04-27-2016 7:20 PM


Faith writes:
I believe you have completely misunderstood what I'm saying.
I'm not basing my observations on what you have just said, I'm basing them on what you have said over the years I've been here and my interpretaion of it.
If I'd ever said that the fervency of my faith was evidence for the truth of what I believe you'd have a point, but I've never said any such thing. I'm quite aware that followers of all religions believe their religion is THE truth and that should go without saying, so this compulsion to inform me of it is just weird.
I'm not informing you Faith, my remarks are about you, not to you. I'm simply using you as an example of someone that has a fervant belief, which I assume you would agree with. I see you as exactly the same as the businessman in a suit that I've just seen in a Kyoto Buddist temple, shoes off, kneeling infront of the temple's alter praying devoutly to his god. Both of you would say that your chosen religion was the correct religion.
believe I've said, though perhaps not clearly enough, that there are OBJECTIVE criteria for evaluating religions, that I was persuaded by the EVIDENCE given in the Bible to its truth over all other religions, by its account of historical events including miraculous events that demonstrate the character of God and His plan of salvation; and that my arriving at belief had absolutely nothing to do with some psychological or emotional condition of my own, some need I had to believe it, and I've certainly never claimed that my believing it to be the truth is evidence that it is the truth. So the fact that everybody believes their own religion is the truth is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it IS the truth or not.
I've seen you claim this many times and I've seen your 'evidence' shot down in flames more often. There is no objective evidence for what you believe, if there was, I'd believe it too. The mere fact that you're incapable of addressing and accepting simple truths about geology, biology and physics - where there is real evidence - makes your arguments defunct.
Anyway that other kind of conversion which is a mere choosing is the question being addressed here -- what brings people to believe in something supernatural or transcendant anyway? I've given my speculations. I've answered in terms of truth claims. Let's drop that and just stick to the question of what motivates people to join a religion, any religion.
I've given my view on this.
I would probably add to it as you raised it, and I was also going to add to Jar's post, the feeling of the transcendental and beliefs that god's talk to them personally. As far as I'm aware these are real brain states that can be seen using fRMI scans, but they also can be induced by drugs. Normally we say these are delusions.
But they are very strong confirmations to the believer that they are on the right track in their beliefs. Of course these are purely person experiences which are totally subjective. The brain is a powerful tool for self-deception.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 7:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-28-2016 8:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 162 (782728)
04-28-2016 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
04-26-2016 9:49 AM


Cat Sci writes:
You failed to consider that people can enjoy performing these rituals and they can enrich their lives.
I didn't fail to consider it, I just didn't mention it as it's not the point I was making.
People enjoy dancing and music, art and fishing etc etc and they too enrich lives but they're not belief systems. Belief systems are far bigger than mere entertainments, they're supposed to be rules to live your life by and methods of successfully obtaining the afterlife or the next life or heaven here on earth. They're supposed to be absolute truths. They cause schisms and splits between societies and disagreements between tribes, at their worst they cause wars and terrorism.
The joke though is that they're all complete fabrications. At the very least it has to be the case that all but one of them is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2016 9:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 51 of 162 (782730)
04-28-2016 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
04-28-2016 4:15 AM


objective evidence
I've seen you claim this many times and I've seen your 'evidence' shot down in flames more often. There is no objective evidence for what you believe, if there was, I'd believe it too.
Objective evidence: If you have no direct evidence of an event such as a miracle, or a historical occurrence of any kind, then you have to depend on the witnesses to the event. The only reason you think my evidence isn't good is that you reject the witnesses because you prefer to believe they were deluded or nonexistent or whatever, out of bias. I accept them as truthful good witnesses and therefore what they witnessed is evidence, and the Bible is nothing but evidence after evidence reported by trustworthy witnesses. You should at least acknowledge that the principle is valid even though your prejudice makes you prefer to impugn the character of the witnesses.'
The mere fact that you're incapable of addressing and accepting simple truths about geology, biology and physics - where there is real evidence - makes your arguments defunct.
Ah well, I know that where I differ with conventional science on those things it's because the evidence is subject to interpretation, and what I'm rejecting is their interpretation, not the evidence itself, and I've many times shown that the evidence better supports creationist views rather than evolutionist views, and it's only because the conventional interpretations are so entrenched that their falseness is hard to expose.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 4:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 9:53 AM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 52 of 162 (782736)
04-28-2016 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
04-27-2016 7:20 PM


Moderator Ruling
Hi Faith,
I received your PM and these are my rulings:
  1. Please do not personalize this thread by holding yourself up as an archetype. This is because when it comes to your own beliefs there are an entire host of possibilities you refuse to consider, but that you seem to have no problem considering for other people, especially of other religions.
  2. Please do not use your own religion as a basis for argument. Argue more generally. This is for the same reason as #1, because when it comes to your own religion there are an entire host of possibilities you refuse to consider, but that you seem to have no problem considering for other religions.
  3. Please do not use the argument, "We just interpret the evidence differently." It's a an empty argument that can be used at any time on any topic, equivalent to, "That's just the way I see it." If you have no evidence or rationale explaining and making sense of your view of the evidence, then please stop debating until you do.
    If you like, you can open a thread to discuss the, "We just interpret the evidence differently," argument.
I've read ahead to your Message 51 and think your argument that claimed eyewitness accounts should be accepted as evidence would be a good discussion subtopic, but do not use any examples that are in any way connected to Christianity.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 7:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 53 of 162 (782738)
04-28-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
04-28-2016 8:01 AM


Re: objective evidence
Faith writes:
Ah well, I know that where I differ with conventional science on those things it's because the evidence is subject to interpretation, and what I'm rejecting is their interpretation, not the evidence itself, and I've many times shown that the evidence better supports creationist views rather than evolutionist views, and it's only because the conventional interpretations are so entrenched that their falseness is hard to expose.
I'm not really interested in your particular delusions here - although they are intrinsically interesting being so extreme and so obviously daft - you just posess one variant of one belief at one extreme end of its spectrum. There are thousands of different beliefs and a spectrum of belief within each one.
It's only in the last couple of generations that individuals on a mass scale have had access to first hand knowledge of people with such beliefs. Perhaps it's really only when you actually see this diversity of belief - just as strong, just as well 'evidenced' as yours that you get the real picture of how ludicrous it all is to claim that yours is the only one that is THE TRUTH.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-28-2016 8:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 162 (782739)
04-28-2016 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
04-28-2016 7:22 AM


I didn't fail to consider it, I just didn't mention it as it's not the point I was making.
Confirmation Bias on purpose?
People enjoy dancing and music, art and fishing etc etc and they too enrich lives but they're not belief systems. Belief systems are far bigger than mere entertainments, they're supposed to be...
Regardless of what they are supposed to be, many people go along with belief systems for reasons that don't have anything to do with what they are supposed to be. Many people go through the motions without any conviction or belief at all. Many people are just lying about it.
The joke though is that they're all complete fabrications.
Yeah, but some of the people that you are joking about are in on the joke.
It makes you look silly to ignore them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 7:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 10:26 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 55 of 162 (782740)
04-28-2016 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2016 10:03 AM


Cat Sci writes:
Confirmation Bias on purpose?
Don't be silly.
Regardless of what they are supposed to be, many people go along with belief systems for reasons that don't have anything to do with what they are supposed to be. Many people go through the motions without any conviction or belief at all. Many people are just lying about it.
Some must be of course. But what is your point?
Yeah, but some of the people that you are joking about are in on the joke.
It makes you look silly to ignore them.
So some people are lying about their beliefs and some people think their beliefs are a joke. Do you think these people are of material consequence or are you just making a trivial point that we can both agree on then move back to the major one?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:03 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:47 AM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 162 (782741)
04-28-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
04-28-2016 10:26 AM


But what is your point?
Taking a superficial glance at peoples' behaviors and laughing about how they'll believe anything misses out on the more interesting underlying reasons for why they behave like they do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 6:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 57 of 162 (782765)
04-28-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
04-27-2016 5:43 AM


I honestly do not believe that any religion ever invented was the product of such psychological motivations. That's the sort of ethnocentric explanation modern westerners are likely to make up out of whole cloth. I believe the majority of the religions, at least the pre-Christian nonbiblical religions, originally came out of experiences of the supernatural or "ghosts" and that sort of thing, and were fitted into inherited myths, such as the distorted mythified versions of the promise of a Savior all inherited from Eden. But practitioners of such religions, especially those who live a monastic life of disciplined meditation and ritual, also experience all kinds of supernatural phenomena which confirms them in their beliefs.
I don't post much nowadays because I can't keep up with you all, but I felt obliged to pop up because, for once, I agree with Faith. Generic explanations of spirituality which rely on things like explaining what happens to you after death are clearly, as Faith points out, post-hoc ethnocentric explanations, as they ignore every spiritualistiv viewpoint which does not offer any clear explanation of life after death. I think it's much more likely that the universality of religion of some kind or another is simply the result of religious experiences. Where I differ from Faith is believing those religious experiences to be produced by side effects of our complex reasoning process rather than actual experience of gods or demons.
Faith is right, however, in dismissing the idea that religion is simply a way to make death more comfortable. Lots of religions don't acheive that, so a general explanation of religion can't rely on such things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 5:43 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2016 7:00 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 58 of 162 (782774)
04-28-2016 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2016 10:47 AM


Cat Sci writes:
Taking a superficial glance at peoples' behaviors and laughing about how they'll believe anything misses out on the more interesting underlying reasons for why they behave like they do.
It's lucky then that I'm not doing any of that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:47 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 162 (782776)
04-28-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by caffeine
04-28-2016 4:50 PM


Caffeine writes:
Faith is right, however, in dismissing the idea that religion is simply a way to make death more comfortable.
I don't think anyone would claim that religions are simply about that - they're far more complex and developed than that, but I'm pretty convinced that the inevitability of death and our foreknowledge of it is a vitally important part of it. Answering the child's question 'where has mummy gone' is a lot easier with religion in your back pocket.
Lots of religions don't acheive that, so a general explanation of religion can't rely on such things.
No doubt some belief systems have nothing to do with after lives - I'm certainly no expert - but it seems to me that the vast majority do - either through direct access to sharing the heavens with the many gods, or joining ancestors, or being reborn at higher levels, or achieving nirvana here on earth.
But I'm not simply pointing out religious beliefs - I'm seeing superstitions of all sorts varying by country, for example in China feng shui is being applied to the orientation and shape of modern skyscrapers housing multi-national banks - not just furniture and fittings - architectural structures at vast cost.
We appear to have superstition built into us.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by caffeine, posted 04-28-2016 4:50 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 60 of 162 (782788)
04-28-2016 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
04-26-2016 12:13 AM


People will still invent their own superstitions, every time they want to feel in control of things they don't in fact control. Sports fans, for example, with their superstitions. I guess religion started when people felt the same way about the weather.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2016 12:13 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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