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Author Topic:   Deflation-gate
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 386 of 466 (780324)
03-14-2016 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Percy
03-14-2016 7:32 AM


Re: Science Fair winner:
No, dissembling doesn't mean lying,
In fact, dissembling is lying, and accusations of dissembling are accusations of lying.
If you want to continue arguing the point I'll leave you to your windmill.
This was an argument ended long ago that you revived for some reason. Like most of that old stuff, I had no desire to go through it again. Apparently that old argument still irks you a bit.
In any event, at the time of the discussion there was a lot of legal discussion about Article 46 and the poor position that the NFPLA had left the players in by agreeing to it. I'm sure I cited at least some of that.
Almost every definition of arbitration I can find requires that a dispute be submitted to an independent third party. That definition does not seem consistent with a procedure that allows the NFL commissioner to be decide the issue. Yet article 46 does exactly that. I recall you fumbling around trying to explain why that would be allowed without much success. I'm also sure that the point of the discussion distinguishing the Article 46 was not merely the name, but to point out the players had agreed to something far less than they would receive with an outside arbitrator.
The name itself isn't of all that much importance. I'm certainly not trying to convince you not to use the term arbitration. But none of that changes a single sentence of Article 46 or the fact that the players agreed to the contents.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Percy, posted 03-14-2016 7:32 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Percy, posted 03-15-2016 7:17 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 387 of 466 (780325)
03-14-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
01-23-2015 10:55 AM


Re: advantages,
response to old post deleted
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 01-23-2015 10:55 AM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 389 of 466 (780419)
03-15-2016 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Percy
03-15-2016 7:17 AM


Re: Science Fair winner:
asserting that the Brady hearing before Goodell wasn't arbitration.
This is a difference of opinion and not, IMO, an error. The fact that you disagree does not make it an error. The fact that you make a vehement argument does not mean that you've rebutted my point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Percy, posted 03-15-2016 7:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Percy, posted 03-15-2016 10:30 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 390 of 466 (780426)
03-15-2016 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Percy
03-15-2016 7:17 AM


Re: Science Fair winner:
Dissembling isn't lying, it's giving things a false appearance.
What you've just described is lying. And in any event, it does not describe my position on the nature of the proceedings. They involved procedure is described in Article 46, and my reasoning behind not calling the proceedings arbitration was based on the distinctions between arbitration and Article 46.
Again, those distinctions exist regardless of what you call the procedure. Your insistence on making this about the name only is dissembling.
Yes, of course to you this isn't about the name. In order to be right you've got to bring in a host of other issues, issues hinted at nowhere in any of the deflategate legal proceedings. They're all in your head.
Only issues contained in the bargaining agreement, and of course mentioned elsewhere as well. So, no they are not all in my head.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Percy, posted 03-15-2016 7:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 392 of 466 (780468)
03-15-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Percy
03-15-2016 10:30 AM


Re: Science Fair winner:
Yes, of course in your opinion it's not an error. That's why your claim that you admit error when shown you're wrong was totally bogus. You just extend the arguing interminably.
Which of course is your opinion. You haven't shown that I'm wrong. You've simply made an argument that I am wrong, while I've made arguments in support of my position.
And of course the text of Article 46 is not an issue that is only in my head. I'm not the only person to cite the article in discussions of the hearing. Your statement to the contrary is simply not correct.
Deflategate is back: Previewing NFL's appeal hearing vs. Brady - Sports Illustrated
quote:
The contractual provision at issue in the NFL’s appeal is Article 46 of the collective bargaining agreement (CBA). The league and the NFLPA, of which Brady is a member, signed the CBA in 2011. Article 46 of the CBA empowers Goodell to fine or suspend to a player who engages in conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football. The operative words and phrasesconduct detrimental; integrity; and public confidenceare, as the NFL stresses, intentionally imprecise. It is up to Goodell’s reasonable judgment to assess and define these words and phrases in individual situations.
quote:
The league insists that the legal question is simply whether Goodell applied Article 46 in a plausible way. To bolster that point, look for Clement to highlight how the NFLPA freely assented to Goodell’s sweeping authority to handle player disciplinary matters, including by empowering Goodell with wide latitude to draw conclusions from investigations. This far-reaching power is designed, the NFL underscores, to guarantee that Goodell can protect the so-called integrity of the game.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Percy, posted 03-15-2016 10:30 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Percy, posted 03-15-2016 2:14 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 401 of 466 (782872)
04-29-2016 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Percy
04-26-2016 7:48 AM


Re: Brady Suspension Reinstated
I have to admit to being drawn back to this group by the Subject heading: Need Briefs. Got a bit of a chuckle out of it. Apparently I am spending too much time around eighth graders these days.
I don't know of any way to get a free electronic copy of the briefs. My understanding is that the PACER system for retrieving and filing appellate court briefs is relatively inexpensive, but I have never been responsible for paying for access. I think you can register and search for the documents for free. Maybe the briefs will eventually turn up on the web for free.
The articles I read are uniform in saying that the ruling is unlikely to be appealed or just that Brady should not appeal, but none give any rationale. The ruling can be appealed to either the full Second Circuit or to the Supreme Court.
Small technical correction. The request to have the full circuit hear the case is actually a petition for a re-hearing rather than yet another appeal. Lest that seem to be nitpicking, understand that the circumstances under which the appellate court will grant a re-hearing are quite limited.
And of course an appeal to the Supreme Court is not granted as a matter of right either.
Not sure what the calculus is regarding whether Brady should appeal. But I'd say that the odds on either the re-hearing being granted or the Supreme Court granting cert. are quite unfavorable. And by that I mean generally speaking and not as a comment on the merits of this particular case.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Percy, posted 04-26-2016 7:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 8:10 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 421 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 10:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 408 of 466 (782904)
04-30-2016 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Percy
04-30-2016 8:10 AM


Re: Brady Suspension Reinstated
o draw the process out as long as possible I think it might be done like this, and I add my guesses of roughly how long each step will take
I see that the NFLPA has taken on a highly competent appellate attorney who is capable and experienced at handling appeals at the Supreme Court level. That may or may not match Brady's thoughts on the matter.
I think you've made an assumption that Brady can get a stay of the current ruling. That is not a given. After all, the season is not going to start for a bit, and the commissioner might chose to concede that Brady can participate in events up until the start of the season. The circuit court might decide that a stay is not needed. If a stay is granted, then the appellate court is unlikely to dally in making a call on the re-hearing.
Of course appellate courts can decide to issue a stay and then foot drag with near impunity. I see that the Supreme Court has recently ordered the Fifth Circuit to take on a ruling on a voting rules matter that the circuit court has delayed handling for two years. They've been essentially ordered to resolve the matter in a matter of weeks. So anything is possible.
Which brings me to my biggest complaint about this matter. How do we justify dedicating limited court resources to a sporting issue over more important cases anyway? Is any of this stuff really more important than the other cases that are getting bumped off the docket to expedite this matter? Surely not.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 8:10 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 3:28 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 409 of 466 (782905)
04-30-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Percy
04-30-2016 1:03 PM


Re: The Odds of Deflategate Continuing Just Went Up
Will the Supreme Court agree to hear the appeal? Seems unlikely, but the absence of Scalia might increase the odds.
Why would that be the case?
I believe that having a smaller number of justices definitely decreases the odds of cert being granted. Unlike the situation when deciding a case, you don't need a majority of the Justices to agree to grant cert. You simply need four votes. So a single opinionated guy cannot cause the court to reject a hearing of cert. But having a Justice missing reduces the chance of getting four votes. I don't see any history of Scalia badgering other Justices into denying cert.
I'd also suggest that it is really unclear how Scalia would vote in this situation. I think it is well established that I don't think much of Scalia's opinion on many matters, but that is not because I believe Scalia is a government stooge or that he always sides with the little man over the big man. Scalia is a wingnut, but I am not sure what the wingnut version of justice is in this instance. Most people, of all political persuasions seem to side with Brady.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 1:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 3:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 412 of 466 (782908)
04-30-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Percy
04-30-2016 3:28 PM


Re: Brady Suspension Reinstated
We don't know what other cases are on the docket (is there a list online?), but the arbitration fairness issue seems a worthwhile one to me given how much employers are relying upon it these days.
Circuit Courts are extremely very busy as a rule. Appeal to the court of appeals is a matter of right, and all of the regular Circuit courts have backlogs of cases. I don't know of a free way to get a look at the docket, but you can find lists of the decisions issued by the second circuit here:
http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions.html
If you look at the opinions issued within the last 30 days you will find large numbers of cases filed in 2014. Yes there are other 2015 cases as well.
This particular case, IMO, is primarily a contract case rather than an arbitration case, but of course that is one point on which you and I disagree. It appears to me that the primary obstacle that Brady faces is the poor bargain negotiated by the players lawyers with respect to disputes over matters "detrimental to the league". The players signed off on a process that gives the Commissioner a tremendous amount of discretion. I certainly would not want to have my livelihood subjected to that process. I'm sure we agree on that.
That said, my own suspicion is that the case is getting special attention because of the parties involved. Most parties who have disputes covered by arbitration party are not similarly situated to NFL and the NFLPA.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 3:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 5:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 416 of 466 (782914)
04-30-2016 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Percy
04-30-2016 3:49 PM


Re: The Odds of Deflategate Continuing Just Went Up
Scalia's increasingly acerbic and sarcastic comments during arguments the past few years strongly hints at what went on behind the scenes between he and justices who disagreed with him.
Yes, but again there is no evidence that those justices kowtowed to Scalia when it comes to cert votes. Scalia was often unpleasant, yes. But the Justices still did their jobs.
If Scalia were still around they might feel that success (from a liberal perspective) would be unlikely,
I don't believe this calculation prevents justices from granting cert. I understand the basis for your opinion, and it is certainly rational, but I don't really think the prospect of not having five votes factors heavily in the vote for granting cert.
And what is a liberal perspective on this case anyway? You seem to be suggesting that there are liberal and conservative opinions on the case that are distinct.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 3:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 7:18 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 417 of 466 (782915)
04-30-2016 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Percy
04-30-2016 5:04 PM


Re: Brady Suspension Reinstated
he primary point of disagreement between the parties can be explained like this:
What you have expressed is of course one way the dispute could be summarized. And perhaps you have put forth the way Brady's lawyers would describe the dispute. It is decidedly not the way the other side would describe the disagreement.
The NFLPA does not believe they negotiated away fundamental fairness, indeed, that parties to a contract cannot even do that under the FAA, LMRA and US law. The NFL probably agrees with this position
The NFL clearly believes that the players bargained away rights that NFLPA is looking to assert in court and the text of the agreement seems to support that belief. That federal law prevents such a bargain is one of the arguments made by Brady and the NFLPA. Apparently at least a couple of judges as well as the NFL do not agree. Maybe correcting that is what the appeal/re-hearing will be about.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Percy, posted 04-30-2016 5:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 7:43 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 422 of 466 (783026)
05-02-2016 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Percy
05-01-2016 10:53 AM


Re: Brady Suspension Reinstated
I'm pretty sure that you must pay a fee for downloading. I'm sure the fee is pretty small, but I don't want to pay it. But you can search for free.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 10:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 424 of 466 (783226)
05-04-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Percy
05-04-2016 10:13 AM


Re: Rehearing Filing Extension Granted
The rehearing request would just be an attempt to postpone serving the 4-game suspension, except that the NFLPA/Brady have added lawyer Ted Olson to their legal team. He claims to have prevailed in Supreme Court cases 75% of the time.
When a request for re-hearing is filed on time, the appellate court is supposed to respond within thirty days of the end of the trial. I assume that the court gets some extra time when there is petition to allow a late filing. (By the way, very little excuse is required for granting an extension as long as you don't wait until the last second to file). But the point is that the delay involved with an unsuccessful petition for a rehearing is minimal.
I have to assume that the request for re-hearing is a serious attempt to ask for reconsideration on the merits rather than a stalling tactic. At the very least, the petitioners might put themselves in better position to ask for a stay.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 05-04-2016 10:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Percy, posted 05-04-2016 2:32 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 426 of 466 (783243)
05-04-2016 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Percy
05-04-2016 2:32 PM


Re: Rehearing Filing Extension Granted
The shortest the process could take would be steps 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7
Could be shorter. Some other possibilities...
Stays are not automatically granted. It is required that the petitioner make some showing that he could win on the merits. In addition, the relative harm to the positions of both parties is also considered to see if a stay should or should not be granted. I note that this is the first time that the case has been in the position where a stay would eliminate any suspension of Brady and also the first time a stay has been requested after a decision on the merits.
The fact that a stay would effectively eliminate all of Brady's punishment might weigh against granting the stay. It might even be necessary for Brady to appeal to the Supreme Court in order to get a stay granted. In that case, the entire case may effectively hinge on whether that stay is granted. Either side might give up at that point. If the stay is not granted while the case is in the status where Brady has lost, then Brady's appeal will effectively be over. If the stay is granted, the NFL may take that as a hint that cert will be granted. Generally these things are handled far more quickly than decisions on the merits. As an extreme example, stays in death penalty cases can be granted or denied within hours of receiving the request.
Alternatively, the court might feel that Brady's suspension could become a monetary fine possibly approaching four games worth of salary that would lean towards granting a stay. That would remove all urgency from the case. Brady might need to post a fairly large bond in order to receive the stay.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Percy, posted 05-04-2016 2:32 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Percy, posted 05-04-2016 3:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 428 of 466 (783262)
05-04-2016 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Percy
05-04-2016 3:31 PM


Re: Rehearing Filing Extension Granted
Even if Brady does not receive the stay, I think he'll still exhaust all legal options. It's personal and has been for a while
He might well do that. I assume that he will. But hearing a no from the Supreme Court on a preliminary matter might be a sufficient hint that its over.
I do not recall the exact numbers, but I'm probably not way off if I say that his $16 million salary for the upcoming season was renegotiated down to $1 million with a $15 million bonus. Loss of salary for four games would amount to only $250,000.
I think a fine of four games salary is probably not a good measure for the bond a court may or may not require of Brady, but I am also not sure that those salary negotiations would limit the size of the fine that can be applied to Brady. I suspect that the size of the fine in lieu of a suspension would be based on Brady's total compensation.
ABE:
Or at least I can say that such a fine is not ruled out. I don't know what the NFL will ask for. Perhaps there is something in the CBA that covers this? Surely everyone is aware that player salaries have some pretty funky clauses.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Percy, posted 05-04-2016 3:31 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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