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Author Topic:   This belief thing
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 71 of 162 (783365)
05-05-2016 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by GDR
05-04-2016 6:54 PM


GDR writes:
disagree with the notion that there is no consistency [...] They all conclude that there is ultimate purpose and meaning to life. They all contend that there is ultimately a right code of conduct that we should adhere to.
This isn't of course correct.
There are multiple, incompatible belief systems alive in the world today. (And many more long gone.) Some, but not all of these systems involve gods - Christianity, Islam, Judeism, Hinduism etc. Others involve ancestor worship and millions think that the numbers 3,7& 8 have magic propertiess - though each one in different countries. Buddists reject the idea of deity entirely. The Chinese build skyscrapers in particular shapes and positions to ward off bad influences. And so on and so forth. Pretty much anything you can imagine about imaginary beliefs has been imagined and worshipped/honoured/practiced.
However, as far as I am aware, all of the major religions have the common thread within in them that it isn't all about me. The golden rule can be found in all of them, which is another consistency.
The notion of 'do as you would be done by' is NOT a religiously derived idea, it's common to humanity regardless of religion, belief system or none. It's a necessary part of human life without which we wouldn't exist. It was here long before our current set of imaginary beliefs, it was there in the caves when we were dancing around the fire. It has been appropriated by some religions because it's a necessary way of getting along. You may believe that that set of cooperative mechanisms was put directly into people (and ants, bees, pack animals etc etc) by a god, or by an evolutionary process set in place by a god, but you CAN'T move from that to say that our religions are derived from god. The evidence is entirely that we make them up.
I'm claiming that the diversity and incompatibility of humanity's belief systems clearly demonstrates that they have been invented by us, not revealed to us by a common god. So much is surely obvious?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 05-04-2016 6:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 05-05-2016 11:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 74 of 162 (783481)
05-05-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by GDR
05-05-2016 11:06 AM


GDR writes:
Yes, there is ambiguity, but my point was that all religions conclude that there is more to life than what is obvious. Buddhists believe in reincarnation etc. Atheism's point is that we live and die as individuals and that ultimately all life will end one way or another and that ultimately there is no over-arching purpose to our existence.
Ambiguity?? The beliefs are incompatible. Most of them claim that only their belief is true. We must at least agree that the vast majority of religions must be invented - presumably in your case all but one of them?
Whether there is an 'overaching purpose to life' is an entirely seperate issue. You can't get from there to religion, that needs a quite different argument.
But that is simply your belief.
It most certainly isn't. People were living in communities before the invention of your religion - are you doubting that?
If, as I believe, we have been given the ability to choose between doing the selfish thing and the unselfish thing we have to do that with the idea that we make the unselfish choice knowing that there is probably no ultimate pay-off for doing so.
We do both the selfish and the unselfish thing for lots of complicated reasons to do with our upbringing, emotional state, genes, time of month, hormone levels, sex, relationships, etc etc etc. To imagine that we do the selfless act for Jesus or Allah or whatever god is in vogue at the time is just plain daft.
Again, you can imagine that 'god did it' but even if he provided the emotional states necessary for us to behave ourselves by choice, it does not even begin to explain the predominance of contradictory religions. The evidence is that they are all made up - except, you would say, one.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 05-05-2016 11:06 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 05-06-2016 7:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 76 of 162 (783594)
05-07-2016 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
05-06-2016 7:25 PM


GDR writes:
I suggest that most religions do have some beliefs in common, such as the golden rule. As I said earlier all major religions agree that there is more to our lives than what is obvious through normal observation whether it be a particular revelation about one deity or another or re-incarnation.
There's no need to suggest it, the so called golden rule is common to all humanity no matter what their belifs. To not have the thing you need to be psychologically damaged - a psychopath.
But religions don't major on that, they all have their own specific beliefs, fetishes and rituals which seperate them and all these things are obviously the inventions of people. There's no avoiding it, they can't all be correct. You are completely ignoring these major incompatibilities as if they don't matter - but they are the core of those beliefs, without believing them many of these beliefs say you can not achieve happiness in the next life. You can't just shrug them off.
I'm theistic.
Yes you are, and a liberal one at that. Nothing I'm saying says that there's no god or that a god could not have built the need to believe in us. What I AM saying is that the overwhelming evidence from the range of incompatible belief systems that exist around the world demonstrates that we have invented them.
If the interventionist god of your belief system really existed and needs us to believe in the one way to him and only one way to him, all these other absurdities could not exist.
God has been around a lot longer that 2000 years. Whar's your point?
That the golden rule was around before man made religious ideas. We didn't need religions to tell us not to murder and steal.
IMHO all religions including my own are in one sense or another made up.
You're actually only a step or two away from atheism. You can do the good and right thing without all the redundant paraphernalia of religious artifacts, politics and humbug.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 05-06-2016 7:25 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:17 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 78 of 162 (783601)
05-07-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:17 AM


Faith writes:
Except that if GDR's God is the same as my God
He's the same god - you're both Christians. You don't have the authority to claim others are not Christians if they believe that they are.
and that is true only to some extent
He's only the same god to some extent? He either is or he ain't Faith. He can't be only a bit the same god.
then far from all the other religions not being able to exist, the Bible explains why all those other religions you call absurdities exist.
Pretty much all belief systems explain why only theirs is correct and why all the others are wrong. You book is the same as everyone else's, man made.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:43 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 97 by GDR, posted 05-08-2016 9:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 80 of 162 (783614)
05-07-2016 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:43 AM


Faith writes:
This is actually not true. People are always claiming this but it is not true. Islam may do this, because it's basically an imitation of Biblical religion, but the nonbiblical religions don't. Please quote one if you think I'm wrong.
So we have Christianity and Islam. The two lagest religions in the world. The third largest with about 1bn followers and is older than Christianity is Hinduism.
Hinduism stands in complete contrast with the Bible's view on many of the key issues of life. Hinduism is not just another way to God; it is a completely opposing system of belief that promotes worship of a multitude of gods. Ultimately, the Bible compels Hindus to leave their beliefs and come to faith in Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6) and calls Christians to share the message of Jesus with Hindus whenever possible (Matthew 28:18-20).
The wiki gives you an idea of it's central concepts which must be accepted to be a Hindu.
Dharma is considered the foremost goal of a human being in Hinduism.[116] The concept Dharma includes behaviors that are considered to be in accord with rta, the order that makes life and universe possible,[117] and includes duties, rights, laws, conduct, virtues and "right way of living".[118] Hindu dharma includes the religious duties, moral rights and duties of each individual, as well as behaviors that enable social order, right conduct, and those that are virtuous.[118] Dharma, according to Van Buitenen,[119] is that which all existing beings must accept and respect to sustain harmony and order in the world. It is, states Van Buitenen, the pursuit and execution of one's nature and true calling, thus playing one's role in cosmic concert.[119] The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad states it as:
Nothing is higher than Dharma. The weak overcomes the stronger by Dharma, as over a king. Truly that Dharma is the Truth (Satya); Therefore, when a man speaks the Truth, they say, "He speaks the Dharma"; and if he speaks Dharma, they say, "He speaks the Truth!" For both are one.
 Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 1.4.xiv [120][121]
In the Mahabharata, Krishna defines dharma as upholding both this-worldly and other-worldly affairs. (Mbh 12.110.11). The word Sanātana means 'eternal', 'perennial', or 'forever'; thus, 'Sanātana Dharma' signifies that it is the dharma that has neither beginning nor end.[122]
The other main group of beliefs are ancestor worship related. They, of course, have such different ideas that they don't concern themselves at all with others.
What none of them say is that you can believe anything else and it's ok. Nope, this is the one you need to believe is the message from them all. Need I go on?
All these belief structures are totally incompatible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:43 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 9:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 81 of 162 (783617)
05-07-2016 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:43 AM


Faith writes:
And I may be misremembering this, but I think his God also didn't die to pay for our sins and save us from Hell. That's an entirely different God from mine if so.
You're not helping your case by claiming that you have a private god that only you understand. It just shows how these things are invented.
According to David Barrett and team, there are 19 major world religious groupings in the world which are subdivided into a total of about 10,000 distinct religions. Of the latter, there were 270 religions and para-religions which had over a half million adherents in the year 2000 CE. Within Christianity, they have identified 34,000 separate groups (denominations, sects, individual unaffiliated churches, para-church groups, etc) in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."
Couldn't be clearer could it? We make them up to suit. Except you of course. Your flavour is absolutlety the correct one. Heaven is going to be very sparcely populated it seems.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 83 of 162 (783629)
05-07-2016 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
05-07-2016 9:29 AM


Jar writes:
Actually many such as Hinduism can also accept Christianity as just another set of gods.
So long as you do the other stuff as well. They have hundreds of gods, it's not the precise god that matters it's the practices that need to be followed that define Hinduism.
But there are also still the Nature Worship groups that again vary in about as many different flavors as the Judaic Trinity of Judaism, Islam and Christianity.
Sure, and there's all the dead gods too. Every form of belief system you can imagine has probably been imagined by now.
Remember though, even if all of the worlds religions are wrong it still says nothing about whether or not there is a GOD.
Which is the point I keep trying to make to GDR but he's not getting it.
It does argue strongly against an interventionist or revealed god though and it renders the concept of organised religion totally absurd.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 9:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 10:22 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 7:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 86 of 162 (783661)
05-07-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
05-07-2016 10:22 AM


Jar writes:
But both of those are also simply not correct. First, there is absolutely no reason even an interventionist god could not use entirely natural methods to intervene. For example by influencing someones thinking or behavior or any other non-detectable method.
If that actually happened, there wouldn't be tens of thousands of different religions - unless you're saying that this/these god are just messing with us?
What it does eliminate is the show off caricature god like the one in the Exodus myth.
And all the rest. Except one. But which one?
Second, organized religions as a concept can make sense even when the god they market may be absurd to others. They can align people to accomplish tasks the individual might not consider, promote a sense of identity and unity, gather and distribute resources, and many other similar social functions.
Sure, but this has zip to do with whether the particular god all these social constructs are organised around actually exists. It's just a bi-product of the belief and if you're going to introduce bi-products you have to include the negatives of tribalism, fanaticism, religious war, discrimination and oppression. Far better to organise our societies around real values such as law and order, equality, family, security, charity, health and education and democracy. No daft rituals required.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 10:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 12:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 88 of 162 (783694)
05-07-2016 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
05-07-2016 12:02 PM


Faith writes:
Oh good grief. It would be helpful if you knew just a little about the history of western civilization, -- supposedly the civilization you grew up in (?) -- and the religion that built it. Sigh.
I'm pretty well educated Faith, if you have a point to make, please make it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 12:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 90 of 162 (783703)
05-07-2016 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
05-07-2016 12:19 PM


Jar writes:
Nonsense. I have already stipulated that religions are all man made and many, many, many times described the difference between the concept of GOD, God(s) and god(s). I will run it by yet again if you want.
It's not nonsense, but so long as we're in agreement that religions are man-made there's no need to go to the trouble.
No, it only eliminates that one god and any similar gods. There could be one GOD or many GODS but not necessarily (actually almost certainly) not any God(s) or god(s) we can discuss.
That needs an explanation but I suspect it's a rabbit warren.
Man does not live by requirements alone nor does the actual existence of a particular God have any real implications when it comes to any religion.
They would not agree with you on that.
Consider just one small aspect of religions, the Christian Bible stories. If you actually read the stories you find they describe many different characters all considered the Judaic God, God of the Bible. It is irrelevant that the actual descriptions of the characteristics are often mutually exclusive, contradictory, evil beyond belief and in many cases jess plain silly. Christianity still makes claim to worship "The God of the Bible".
Sure, people, as we know, will happily believe what they would like to believe.
In addition, religion and other social aspects are not mutually exclusive. There is plenty of room for multiple organizations.
That's currently being tested in the real world. The evidence appears to be that the more educated a society becomes, the less need it has for religion and superstitions.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 12:19 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 92 of 162 (783723)
05-08-2016 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:07 PM


Faith writes:
And that of course includes atheists and evolutionists and Pessimists?
Atheists are human too so they're susceptable to all the human frailties, but they are far less likely to fall for unevidenced nonsense than, say, biblical literalists.
As there's no such thing as an evolutionist we can pass over that, and anybody at all - from greengrocers to nuns - can be a pessimist so I'm not clear what that trait has to do with anything.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 4:49 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 94 of 162 (783730)
05-08-2016 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
05-08-2016 4:49 AM


Faith writes:
Interesting that of course it's only people you disagree with who believe what they want to believe, not the people you agree with or humanity at large as you originally said.
You have a habbit of seeing what you want to see Faith. Did you not notice that I said that atheists were human and therefore also susceptible to human traits? It's axiomatic that atheists are less likely to be taken in by supertition and primitive belief systems than religious extremists.
I just threw pessimists in for comic relief, although one could seriously ask if their pessimism reflects a desire to see things pessimistically.
Now now, let's not do the disingenuous thing. You inferred and are now stating it outloud that atheists are pessimists. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 4:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 2:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 96 of 162 (783768)
05-08-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
05-08-2016 2:27 PM


Faith writes:
Uh, I didn't arrive at that conclusion, I didn't even suspect the possibility of such a connection. The truth is what I said, I threw in the pessimist as a completely independent whimsical thought, no more than that, no connection with atheism or anything else, just another kind of "ist" that for some reason popped into my head, that I also thought humorous.
Bizarre behaviour even for you.
And the question is serious: where do you draw the line between the sorts of people who believe things because they are stu*pid enough to believe what they desire to believe, and those who are toughminded enough to reject their own subjectivity in a sincere desire to get at the truth.
Why would I draw a line and why do you think it's only stupid people that believe what they desire to believe? Being what you call toughminded is probably a hinderence in getting to the truth. In your case it mean rejecting anything that doesn't conform to you preconceived ideas. It requires you to reject truth. That's just pig-headed obduracy.
Well, you seem to draw that line at the people who believe things you think are stu*pid and unfounded, out of personal bias.I of course think it was my own toughmindedness that allowed me to see the truth in Christianity against a tidal wave of cultural and intellectual reasons not to,
If there is a tidal wave of evidence, and your objections to it are unreasonable, what you're being is not 'toughminded' it's intransigent.
Yes I saw what you said about atheists being mush-headed sometimes too
You really don't care what you make up do you?
but then you went on to claim that nevertheless in general they are more toughminded than those who believe in "superstitions and primitive belief systems."
No I didn't. You made that up too.
You do know I was an atheist for at least thirty years between my childhood nominal belief in a God and my being persuaded to Christianity after much reading about religions in my mid-late-forties?
So you have said many times. I would guess that that is a very unusual event.
I don't know what the statistics are but your own personal bias is the biggest part of this judgment you are making.
Like you say, you don't know what the statistics are. But I do. There are tens of thousands of beliefs, you believe that your particular branch of one of them is correct and all the others are wrong - including the biggest branch of your flavour of Christianity. So the odds of you being correct are 1 in many thousands. We could do the real numbers but I'm sure you get the point. We could do them another way too and say that your particular version has a few thousand followers and all the other religions have billions; do you want to do the maths? Where is my bias in that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 99 of 162 (783853)
05-09-2016 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by GDR
05-08-2016 9:49 PM


GDR writes:
I don't agree with that jar. Different people hold different views on the nature and their expectations of politicians for example but they are still the same people.
As you say, they can hold different views but it's still the same politician. Faith is claiming that she and you may be voting for different politicians whilst calling him by the same name.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by GDR, posted 05-08-2016 9:49 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 11:24 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 101 of 162 (783856)
05-09-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
05-09-2016 11:24 AM


Faith writes:
I didn't say what you are quoting in the quote box under my name, GDR did.
Fixed, thanks
If the characteristics are different it seems likely we're not talking about the same person.
This is the problem all religions have - they can't even agree amongst themselves even core belifs like which god they believe in. Two supposed Christians saying that they worship different gods. What more evidence is required to show that you're all making it up to suit?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 11:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 12:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
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