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Author | Topic: This belief thing | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi LamarkNewAge,
Please don't post messages with huge cut-n-pastes. From the Forum Guidelines:
As this is your second warning I will remove the content from your message and send a copy to you in a PM. Please, no replies to this message.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
My post went into some "PM" or something.
I did a link to a Wikipedia article on "Solomon's Temple". (I think) It referenced page numbers where Finkelstein apparently placed the 1st Temple at a later date than the 10th century. (the date seemed to be quite late) My responses and posts have been deleted a lot lately. I was planning to get back to the reincarnation thread, but doubt that will be possible since I can't quote others to show viewpoints.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I mentioned that the Bible says that the entire northern kingdom of Israel was shipped to Iranian cities.
Then easterners were placed in Samaria as a replacement. in 721 BCE? See 2 Kings 17 (?) Finkelstein's book starts out describing the refugees that filled Jerusalem around the same 720-730 date, and their endeavor to write a history. They came from the northern kingdom. I'll let you know if I remember any more of my post.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
LMA writes: I mentioned that the Bible says that the entire northern kingdom of Israel was shipped to Iranian cities.Then easterners were placed in Samaria as a replacement. in 721 BCE? See 2 Kings 17 (?) Finkelstein's book starts out describing the refugees that filled Jerusalem around the same 720-730 date, and their endeavor to write a history. They came from the northern kingdom. I'll let you know if I remember any more of my post. I don't give a flying fluke. The thread isn't about whether individual nonsenses that various religions believe are true or otherwise, it's about why they believe them given their variety and incompatibility.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Finkelstein outright denies that the entire population of Israel was deported. Instead he says that "most of the surviving Israelites were left on the land" says that in the hill country around Samaria "the deportations were minimal" and talks about a "surprising demographic continuity". He also refers to 2 Chronicles 30:1 as indicating that Israelites remained.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I've checked the pages, and since I have a different edition I checked the index too. I could find no references to the Temple being built later.
ABE According to the Talk page, other Wikipedians have also had problems verifying the claims.
However there is another problem here: the text cited to F&S is not very well supported by the listed pages of that source
Edited by PaulK, : Discussion on Talk page is relevant
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
LamarkNewAge writes: My responses and posts have been deleted a lot lately. Correction: Despite warnings you have repeatedly violated rule 6 of the Forum Guidelines, and there has been moderator action twice. In one case your response was hidden, in another it was removed and the content PM'd to you. From the Forum Guidelines:
Please, no replies to this message.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: I'm a little confused (o.k. more than just a little). What exactly is this about and how are we to discuss it? Also. PaulK was asking me how the Finkelstein book can be seen as supportive of those who question the Jewish Temple (and scriptures) being the original product of Canaanitie/Israelite/Palestinian society and instead want to see the origins in Africa or Arabia (with the Jews simply being imitators of a foreign religion whose scriptures and history they co-opted and without attributing those they borrowed from). I was just showing that certain details from the Bible (and Assyrian texts) support the notion that there was a discontinuity between Palestinians pre 8th century and residents after. And the Finkelstein book says Jerusalem only had 1000 residents before the later 8th century BCE, when it shot up to 10,000. My deleted post was full of "I don't know" comments about the Jewish Temple pre-dating the extant archaeological (and in-situ textual evidence) evidence which doesn't show anything before the 7th century. I don't know if Judah existed before the later 8th century (when first mentioned), but I know it is seen as evidence (by some/many) that there were no Jews 800 BCE.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
He might say that, but there were still Assyrian records of 10s of thousands of removals and replacements with as many transplants.
The Babylonians came later and removed a big chunk of the population. One can easily see opportunities for legends and (old)religions to travel and be co-opted (into newer religions). Carl Sagan, on Cosmos, said that Ionians, in the 7th century BCE, developed scientific theories of the Earth based on Enuma Elish. They "left Marduk out" and had naturalistic geological theories, but got the inspiration and details from the Babylon religious text. Thales? Or Anaximander? One of the two. Historians say that the early chapters of the Hebrew Bible, that are in Genesis, from the creation to the Babel incident, were inspired (or copied) by Sumerian and Babylonian history and religions. The later ones (especially if one looks at the inner testament period texts that aren't held sacred) seem to copy the Persian religions. Could the middle-ones be copies as well? I doubt it myself.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: So now you're rejecting Finkelsteins claims because they are against the idea of a ""discontinuity". What's the point in citing the book if you are going to disagree with it ? And really, even if the Assyrian records do say what you claim - and I'll wait for evidence of that - why should they override the archaeological evidence ? Hyperbole is hardly unknown in the Middle East - ancient and modern.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Huh? I didn't say that. I'm not sure where this came from. Somebody hacked me if this was under my name. Honestly. But on to the rest.
quote: The Islamic texts have always said that the Jewish texts weren't the original unmolested texts. There never was an actual explanation for how this happened and just how changed the texts were changed. Not an official position despite lots of individual opinions. I admit I don't have the (Muslim)scholars names, dates, and comments. I also can't assess how authoritative any were (naturally, since I'm ignorant of the first 3 details). Islam just states that "everything original has been lost, only God has those elusive texts". "The Koran tells us everything we need to know".
quote: I think we all can imagine lots of "chatter" over the past 1400 years. What was the "popular view" verses the official edicts from the Caliphs? I'm sure the Caliphs simply ignored the situation, and whatever comments they made about the Jewish scriptures and Gospels were very mild and not too earth-shaking.
quote: Judah was always assumed to have existed in the 10th century in a way comparable to the Biblical description. Now archaeologists admit that they can't tell the difference between 10th and 9th century pottery, and that Judah is 100% absent any evidence of existence pre 750 BCE. Even worse for the Temple of Solomon.
quote: Their forceful theories on geographical and racial/tribal issues surely made their way around the globe. Perhaps they were an extreme example of an "underground" type of average-guy Muslim which happens to be far more exotic in their explanation of how the Hebrew Bible (and Jews) came to be what it was (and is) verses the "pure revelation" that once existed.
quote: Did the Jewish Solomon actually exist? His name is a legendary name which describes the attributes of his reign and the conditions of his kingdom. I quoted William Dever admitting that the "peaceful" Solomon (and "beloved" David) of the Bible did not exist. Or at least the Biblical David and Solomon with their empire from Egypt to north Syria. My post is lost though. And the OP is made we are even discussing this.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
LNA writes:
I'm a little confused (o.k. more than just a little). What exactly is this about and how are we to discuss it? The premise is that there are virtually endless belief systems from ancestor worship to multiple god worship to, well you name it, it's a belief somewhere. The intricacies of individual belief systems are irrelevant (if amusing in a tragic sort of way), but they can't all be true. The question is why, now that we know all about the world's different and contradictory beliefs we still believe what we individually believe and believe that everyone else is wrong. If 99.99% of all belief systems are wrong or dead, why are the believers so sure that theirs is the chosen one? There's a secondary issue - are we just programmed to believe?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: First, the Assyrian textual records. Here is a quote from Context of Scripture by William Hallo (the Wikipedia editors don't know what that is it seems because they are asking for a citation).
quote: Now, the Bible seems to describe a depopulated land. 2 Kings 17 matches the Assyrian records. You have the Jews and the segregated Samaritans. The Gospel of John says that a Samaritan was shocked that Jesus was talking to her. She said they were so segregated that they weren't even allowed to talk to each other. Matthew says that Jesus sent his disciples to Jews and real Israelites, excluding Canaanites and Samaritans. Now you say the textual evidence is being used to "override the archaeological evidence ". Well, we were talking about peoples understanding of the situation on the one hand, and foreign influence on the other. The Biblical text has caused us all to see Israel as depopulated, right? Muslims would see that, right? The Biblical text describes foreigners replacing the northern kingdom Israelites, right? Now the archaeological evidence shows that "Israel" might have existed in the 10th century but Judah didn't exist until Israelite refugees flooded Judah and Jerusalem around 720 BCE. Finkelstein himself said that Jerusalem went from 1000 inhabitants up to 10,000 in just a few years or decades during that last quarter of the 8th century BCE. Right? Hope my post doesn't vanish lol.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
So, no detailed numbers of the deportations, just vague statements which are assumed to include everyone who isn't serving as military.
And 2 Chronicles 30 indicates that there were Israelites still living in Israel at that time. And even then we have to take account of the refugees fleeing to Judah, which undermines the whole idea of a discontinuity.
quote: As I keep pointing out that is not true. The archaeological evidence shows that Judah was settled before then - emerging about the same time as Israel, that the people were very similar to the Israelites, and that they carried in living there all through the period. Besides, even if the locals were entirely replaced by refugees from Israel, how would that help the claimed "discontinuity" ? They're still Hebrews, of the tribes of Israel.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Well, there are many different views on the numbers of refugees (in all directions). Here is what the Biblical text says about what you cite. It was a small number of people, and they might have been foreigners who assumed Israelite identity.
quote: There were deportations before 722/721. And immigration inward too.
quote: A.H. Sayce was the leading apologist before Albright. Here was one of his most important defenses of the Old Testament history. Full text of "The "higher criticism" and the verdict of the monuments" There were textual records from the Assyians that we have today. There was the 853 BCE Assyian invasion of Syria which included Syian states allied with Israel. Notice the absence of Judah and his reaction.
quote: He has this difficulty for the next 100+ years till about 740/730 when Judah is finally mentioned. Judah is mentioned after the Assyrians brought in foreigners to Palestine. Who knows if the "Israel" of 853-721 BCE had a pure pedigree. Did the actual people even care as the later biblical writers had? (My keyboa hasn't been woking. Sorry fo the short post. The r key is almost dead.)
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